"Figures of Argentine Tango" page

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#21
Honestly, I've been trying to get into nuevo over the past couple of years, and one tentative conclusion I've reached on that score is that figures are one of the important building blocks for nuevo.

I don't think that applies for traditional, however. I danced with a first-time follower last night, and within 3 dances I had her doing steps, ochos, giros, and so on. All without a word of instruction beyond telling her to adopt a forwards posture. She didn't need figures to get dancing, she just needed 10 seconds of posture advice and demonstration.
huh that's nothing ; I did the same with a jiver using only a forehead to forehead lead.....
 

sixela

Well-Known Member
#22
Honestly, I've been trying to get into nuevo over the past couple of years, and one tentative conclusion I've reached on that score is that figures are one of the important building blocks for nuevo.
Actually, if you understand "nuevo" as "Gustavo Naveira systematic approach", one of the most important things is that there are actually no figures, even less so than in traditional tango, i.e. anything that's possible as a sequence in the system and not forbidden by considerations of balance etc. is allowed.

There are many --valid-- reasons why at least some possibilities aren't allowed in a social dance setting (and that also means that "nuevo social" dancing necessarily is more restrictive than "nuevo" in the Platonic World of Ideas).
 

sixela

Well-Known Member
#23
Absolutely. They're all shorthand for "a group of steps and movements performed in a set manner".
If the group of steps is (always) performed in a set manner, then the article on "tango figures" should actually be very short (and the page should read "there are no figures except as creatures of habit"). That's why I said it's difficult to use the term "figures" in AT in the same way as in some other dances.

I disagree that a sequence is a group of steps performed in a set manner. A sequence is just one particular group of steps strung together, it may illustrate something if it's used in teaching, but nothing says it should be performed like that or is due any deference.

That's why I prefer the term "sequence": it's neutral and doesn't imply (like "figure" does) that the sequence is somehow "correct" or "better".

Of course, as said elsewhere, we don't form all possible sentences the language allows and we all have our idioms, but they're not set except by habit.

OK. If we don't call "a volcada", "an alteracion" or "an enrosque" a figure, then what should we call it? It's certainly not a sequence (well, I confess the alteracion is one of a group of short sequences because "to alternate" you have to have a history), it's usually a small element in umpteen different ones (even if you restrict yourself to fairly short sequences).

I think "element" might work. I guess the page could indeed be called "elements of tango".
 
#24
Quite. It only contains some elements of figures but no sequences. What, someone doesn't mention sequences and that's a bad thing?

;).
It appears that they are calling all elements, figures. They are also calling various systems( my words) - X, parrallel, volcada,colgada and various embraces, figures

It appears to be an attempt at listing all the individual figures/elements/systems you may use in a sequence.

Are there any individual figures/elements/systems that anybody would consider using in a sequence that is not listed?
 

sixela

Well-Known Member
#26
Thought so.

Well, what do you mean? People insisting on dancing extremely convoluted figures with only the flimsiest of connections and almost no control, using lots of room on a crowded dance floor and no regard for the ronda, preferably dressed in rags and dancing to a tango version of "Blue Monday" of New Order fame (actually, I've heard one version which was very danceable, believe it or not)?

New age tango with couples insisting on gazing in each others eyes even on said crowded dance floor?

I wouldn't call those things "nuevo". Bad nuevo, perhaps (even though there are yet other forms of bad nuevo).

Gustavo Naveira did open a can of worms by allowing lots of stuff: it's the dream sequence factory for people who want to teach completely unseen sequences to eager students. You could almost write an ELIZA-like program for generating them randomly (or perhaps define fitness functions and then use a genetic algorithm that e.g. subsitutes ganchos for back sacadas or vice versa from time to time and then adjust the rest for the splicing operation. You might even want to keep some impossible sequences in the gene pool if you have an algorithm like that ;) ).

All you then have to do is teach merely sequences and hide the generating system (otherwise people might start recognising elements and combining them themselves, and that won't do: they might no longer see you as their Tango God!)

If you think lots of sequences are the elements then someone has successfully used a lot of trees to hide the forest from you.
 
#27
Well, what do you mean?
My personal definition of nuevo is pivot-based movements, usually done in an open embrace, to non-traditional music.

This, to me, differentiates it from salon, which I personally define as walking-based movements, usually done in a close embrace, to traditional music.

I realise my personal definitions may not match those of others. But frankly, I don't care - those work for me.

People insisting on dancing extremely convoluted figures with only the flimsiest of connections and almost no control, using lots of room on a crowded dance floor and no regard for the ronda, preferably dressed in rags and dancing to a tango version of "Blue Monday" of New Order fame
Ah, you've been to Negracha's then? :D

(actually, I've heard one version which was very danceable, believe it or not)?
I do believe it; the Tanghetto version makes a nice milonga.

But given your clear bias against nuevo, I'm surprised to hear you admit it.

If you think lots of sequences are the elements then someone has successfully used a lot of trees to hide the forest from you.
Yeah, I'm well-known for my naivete, gullibility and willingness to accept any old tosh that someone with a ponytail and a spanish accent shoves down my throat. Ask anyone.

:rolleyes:
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#29
..wouldn't call those things "nuevo". Bad nuevo, perhaps....
Once I introduced the term NeoTango here, but it didn´t become established in this Forum, yet.

Think Neo is the low-budget version of Nuevo for everyman. For me Nuevo is almost synonymious with Fantasia and still connected with the music developement late Pugliese, Rovira, and Piazzolla took.

...salon, which I personally define as walking-based movements, usually done in a close embrace, to traditional music...my personal definitions may not match those of others. But frankly, I don't care..
But Salón somehow was defined by its afficionados as Tango with Giros, and thus with Pivots?

....You could almost write an ELIZA-like program for generating them randomly (or perhaps define fitness functions and then use a genetic algorithm that e.g. subsitutes ...
Hi compagnera !
 

UKDancer

Well-Known Member
#30
Once I introduced the term NeoTango here, but it didn´t become established in this Forum, yet.

Think Neo is the low-budget version of Nuevo for everyman. For me Nuevo is almost synonymious with Fantasia and still connected with the music developement late Pugliese, Rovira, and Piazzolla took.
It seems ironic, given the label, that the music is half a century old. It also turned out that it was perfectly good for dancing, as well.

But Salón somehow was defined by its afficionados as Tango with Giros, and thus with Pivots?
Is there any inconsistency here? In close embrace, those pivots all-but disappear, to be replaced by front & back cross steps.
 
#31
My personal definition of nuevo is pivot-based movements, usually done in an open embrace, to non-traditional music.

This, to me, differentiates it from salon, which I personally define as walking-based movements, usually done in a close embrace, to traditional music.
So, if someone alternates pivot-based and walking-based movements in a flexible embrace and dances to traditional and non-traditional music this should appear to you as a strange mix of nuevo and salon?
 
#32
So, if someone alternates pivot-based and walking-based movements in a flexible embrace and dances to traditional and non-traditional music this should appear to you as a strange mix of nuevo and salon?
No. That should appear to me as if they're dancing to the music.

Unless you're hypothesising a single track which mixes traditional and non-traditional music? If so I agree that is strange, but even so they're still obviously dancing to the music. It's just that the music is strange.

Am I weird to expect a competent dancer to be able to dance appropriately to the style of music? :confused:
 
#34
No. That should appear to me as if they're dancing to the music.

Unless you're hypothesising a single track which mixes traditional and non-traditional music? If so I agree that is strange, but even so they're still obviously dancing to the music. It's just that the music is strange.

Am I weird to expect a competent dancer to be able to dance appropriately to the style of music? :confused:
No, the weirdness is a dance with only pivot-based movements... I am just trying to understand your definition of nuevo as a dance.

Actually, I am quite interested to this subject beacuse since I was a beginner I'm trying to understand what most people means by "nuevo" and the only conclusion that I reached is that nobody cares about what Naveira and Salas (who are claimed to be the inventors of nuevo) say, but nobody manages to give a consistent alternative definition. This is what a I find weird.

As a music, I think that nuevo should be properly refferred only to Piazzolla style, while everything else should be called neotango or simply non traditional tango. But it seems most people understand "nuevo" as all non traditional tango and that's not a big issue.
 

Subliminal

Well-Known Member
#35
As a music, I think that nuevo should be properly refferred only to Piazzolla style, while everything else should be called neotango or simply non traditional tango. But it seems most people understand "nuevo" as all non traditional tango and that's not a big issue.
That's kind of the definition that I like.

I don't like to be tied to a particular style for a song. It's whatever fits the music. :) I once saw a very nuevo oriented teacher demonstrate how volcadas, colgadas, and calecitas could be used to interpret di Sarli and other melodic traditional tango pieces. Very cool.
 
#36
Originally Posted by chanchan
As a music, I think that nuevo should be properly refferred only to Piazzolla style,
Depending on why you are saying this, later Pugliesse certainly and possibally very late Troilo, is often classified in this way as well.

The reason for this classifcation is that they use the same instrumentation as traditional tango but the way the instruments are arranged within a track are different.
 

Joe

Well-Known Member
#37
It's a semantic discussion. A "volcada" or an "ocho" is something I'd call a figure (in the context of AT), but they're actually techniques, not really sequences.
No, they're not really techniques either. They're elements or actions (that could be part of a sequence).
 
#39
I didn't say only pivot-based movements. I said it was based around the pivot. Is that distinction not clear?
Not so much.
I recognize that some movements in tango are pivot-based (ocho, calesita, planeo, lapiz, enrosque, ecc.) and some movement al walking-based (walking in parallel system, walking crossed system, cross, 8CB, etc). I can add some movements are neither of them (volcada, ocho milonguero, etc.). Others are both of them (cadena).
During a dance, all those types of movements are usually applied. In particular, a well balanced mix of walking and non walking based movements is essential to move in the dance floor without hurting other couples.
So what is the meaning of "nuevo is pivot-based movements, salon is walking-based movements" or "based around the pivot"?
Does it mean that if you do more pivot than walk you are dancing nuevo?
 

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