"Figures of Argentine Tango" page

#81
And how would they call traditional music danced with an emphasis on larger movements done with either no travel or long steps, utilizing fancy leg work like intertwining wraps, high boleos and suspended ganchos?
Personally I'd call it bad dancing. I can recommend many places in London where people will do precisely that, if you want to see it in action.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#83
Yeah, I hear you.


From a dancing perspective, I completely agree.

The only reason I personally need to create and use some simple definitions is because I need a fairly straightforward model to explain to my students, who ask awkward questions like "What is the difference?" and "When should I use open embrace?" and so on.

(I generally reply "never" to the last question :) )
when you might use an open embrace;
when your partner isnt able to balance...
when she's taller and endowed in the chest department and you feel you've just put on a lifejacket....or climbing a v.diff overhang...
when she cant keep her weight forward over her toes...
when she doesnt know how to cross from a forward ocho to the leader's right..
 

newbie

Well-Known Member
#84
And therein lies the whole problem: when you start calling what Copes dances "nuevo"
He created the 8CB and this was called "stage tango" by his colleagues. Not a social dancer anyway. Old, but stage dancer.

Even if you defined "nuevo" as anything after the 1960s
1940's, by (tm) milonguero's standards.


I tend to agree with Gustavo Naveira
He sure will feel flattered.

There have been lots of styles that coexisted in any one period, there has been a history with many dips and revivals, and the styles all evolved and blended quite organically.
And Captain Obvious drives home another point.


So it all started as show tango on a social dance floor
Hey this part of the wall-of-text is true. There must be some truth after all in the monkey-and-the-typewriter story.


Ten years ago were all dancing showy stuff at arms' length... None of us even had a beginning of a clue on how to navigate in a milonga, and that was something never taught
Speak for yourself.


a genuine '20s dance hall ... "El Dorado"
Hopefully the fish used for empanadas was not from the 20's

What is appropriate on di Sarli with only five couples on the dance floor is not appropriate when there are 60.
On Di Sarli it's unlikely that anything extravagant will appear anyway.

You mean Vicente Lopez.


silently and slowly morphed into "auténtico tango de Buenos Aires"
I bet the real reason is, the same people being ten years older, they became slow and silent.


That's like asking when Homo heidelbergiensis became Homo sapiens...
It never happened. It evolved into neandertalensis. Who - for the sake of the tango metaphor - then went extinct.
 

sixela

Well-Known Member
#87
And Captain Obvious drives home another point.
Hey this part of the wall-of-text is true. There must be some truth after all in the monkey-and-the-typewriter story.
Thank you for being pointlessly adversarial (if you don't like the style of what I post, there's such a thing as merely ignoring it and focusing on the message. But then I remember you almost advocated to bump into static objects just to teach them in another thread, so I guess you're an a mission to Educate the World).

Still, I'll sift through your pleasantly parsimonious wall of invective and address some other points.

Speak for yourself.
I always do. "We" obviously refers to most people trying to dance social tango in the '90s where I live (i.e. Flanders). Perhaps you got luckier, but we just learned from the people who were available to introduce us to AT at the time.

There was actually one couple who evolved to dance something that looked like close embrace AT; the only problem is that they could lead nor follow (and obviously couldn't teach those skills) and had no discernible ear for the music, and that works even worse than stage tango shoehorned into a social dance floor (but at least led/followed and improvisational).

On Di Sarli it's unlikely that anything extravagant will appear anyway.
Why not? That's music that usually inspires me to do pretty teasing stuff (unless the branding police is there to stop me).

I bet the real reason is, the same people being ten years older, they became slow and silent.
Even the younger ones who started somewhere 2005-2010-ish have adopted a different style. Everybody young and old alike is dancing differently.
 

sixela

Well-Known Member
#88
Personally I'd call it bad dancing.
It's possible to do some good dancing like that as well. Bad dancing isn't a style, it's just bad dancing. And that's possible in every style.

I agree there's some correlation: some people develop complex dancing to hide the lack of good dancing, nay, as an alternative to developing good dancing.

Sometimes it's not even their fault but that of the available teachers.
 
#89
People do tend to a more traditional style when traditional music is on
But high boleos and ganchos are old moves, and part of the tradional style. The same is for the open embrace, soltada, fancy steps, big steps, large movements, pivots.
You seem to be incorrectly assuming that all of that is something "new".
Also tango shows and choreography, are a very very old thing.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#92
But high boleos and ganchos are old moves, and part of the tradional style. The same is for the open embrace, soltada, fancy steps, big steps, large movements, pivots.
You seem to be incorrectly assuming that all of that is something "new".
Also tango shows and choreography, are a very very old thing.
Sigh... I'm not assuming anything... I was just trying to use words that it seemed we all understood, whether or not completely accurate or agreed upon, to answer a direct question put to me about what dancers here do. I don't want to use a paragraph to describe in detail what dance style I mean, so I thought (sigh) that at least if I used the term traditional to follow up on a post where I described the local use of the term "Nuevo" as being different, then people would know I meant:

"Not the nuevo I described above, but a more BA-like social style suitable for a more crowded milonga and utilizing smaller and more subtle movements, all done in some variation of more consistent close embrace that might occasionally open somewhat for ochos and molinetes and focusing more on rhythm than on the fancy moves that impress viewers, generally taking up less space than the local nuevo style (although an occasional gancho or boleo might be used where there's room, but done with a snappy sharp expression rather than the languid sensual movement they use in what they call nuevo) and also traveling with less speed and long steps, so although your partner may be in connection heaven, beginners watching are starting to yawn just like I am with this discussion of naming styles going round and round with no possibility of consensus"
:kitty:
 

sixela

Well-Known Member
#93
Silly or not, if it helps to open someone´s eyes it would be the proper way.
My experience is that pigeon-holing things usually isn't done to open anyone's eyes.

If you want to open your eyes, then you have to look and recognise the continuum, not reduce things to caricatures or try to stick a pin through them and stick a label under each thing.

Do I thereby deny it's not useful to show how extremes differ? Of course not, and I frequently do. But I tend not to get hung up by labels too much and I'm very loose in the way I colour the map of the continuum or draw borders.

I also make a point of trying to see the internal coherence and logic in styles and ways of thinking that aren't mine, just to learn a lot about my preferences by studying those of others; I only joke about styles and call them "wrong" them in casual conversation, not in a forum like this where irony doesn't travel very well and where people don't know how I'm wired.

I'll leave it to others to point out what the Correct Way is because <insert name dropping> said so.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#96
My experience is that pigeon-holing things usually isn't done to open anyone's eyes. .
I agree. It does seem more often to be used in order to be "right" and make others "wrong", whether it is nitpicking dance styles or stereotyping groups of people based on religion, race or anything else.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#97
Sigh... :

"Not the nuevo I described above, but a more BA-like social style suitable for a more crowded milonga and utilizing smaller and more subtle movements, all done in some variation of more consistent close embrace that might occasionally open somewhat for ochos and molinetes and focusing more on rhythm than on the fancy moves that impress viewers, generally taking up less space than the local nuevo style (although an occasional gancho or boleo might be used where there's room, but done with a snappy sharp expression rather than the languid sensual movement they use in what they call nuevo) and also traveling with less speed and long steps, so although your partner may be in connection heaven, beginners watching are starting to yawn just like I am with this discussion of naming styles going round and round with no possibility of consensus"
:kitty:

that is worthy of Monty Python..especially one of Eric Idle's monologues..
 
#98
My experience is that pigeon-holing things usually isn't done to open anyone's eyes.

If you want to open your eyes, then you have to look and recognise the continuum, not reduce things to caricatures or try to stick a pin through them and stick a label under each thing.
In other words, you don't feel that any information management exercise is ever useful? Categorisation of data is pointless? Well, I think that's a, um, somewhat novel position...

I agree that bad information management is poor - that leads to jargon and narrow-minded interpretations. But you have to have some form of grouping, surely? There are differences in styles, in embrace, in music - attempting to ignore them is not helpful.

But I tend not to get hung up by labels too much and I'm very loose in the way I colour the map of the continuum or draw borders.
What makes you think anyone on this thread would differ from, or disagree with, that approach? :confused:

It's perfectly possible to have the best of both worlds. That's called a compromise.
 

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