following or 'dancing the woman's role'?

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#63
Because I feared I haven´t got it right, location vs. style....
My remark was a sweeping generalistion, my evaluation is that a lot of tango dancing is gutless ( maybe through fear of making mistakes); there is enough skill and variety to make it okay, but some places get a bit "precious" about it.

Precious = 4. Affectedly dainty or overrefined: precious mannerisms/
behaving as if something is more important or serious than it really is.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#65
Since embellishments have been discussed in this thread, I suggest reading http://tangovoice.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/womens-adornments-for-tango-social-dancing/ that says it all and more.
Thanks for posting this. It's very much worth reading.
:cheers:


For me, it confirmed what I've felt, that there are differing opinions/philosophies/styles on this stuff. My personal opinion is that the term "Salon style" encompasses all the main/tradition styles danced at various milongas in BsAs (with estilo del centre (milonguero style) and estilo del barrio (VU Style) being the two main subsets).


Barrio / VU Style (embellishments are essential) said:
Tango instructor Andres Amarilla from Buenos Aires states:
Villa Urquiza is one of the most beautiful styles within the overarching label of “traditional tango.” It gets its name from the Villa Urquiza neighborhood in Buenos Aires. The style is characterized by its elegance, with an emphasis on clean lines, exquisite adornments, and soulful musicality. Common elements in this style include enrosques, lapices, agujas, the reloj, corridas, adornments and complex turns.
Likewise, Ney Melo, a tango instructor in New York, and a proponent of ‘Tango Estilo Villa Urquiza’, states ‘The salon Villa Urquiza style is a very elegant style that gives a lot of space for the woman to adorn.’ Maria del Carmen Romero & Jorge Dispari, who danced tango in the barrio of Villa Urquiza in the 1950s, have been described as belonging to ‘… the very few teachers of the Villa Urquiza style, that is characterized by elegant and pure walk, musical adornments and spry movements with abundance of giros, enrosques, lapices, arujas.’ Thus, in contemporary tango, instruction in the use of adornments, particularly for women, is frequently marketed under the label of ‘Tango Estilo Villa Urquiza’.
Millonguero said:
Melina Sedo, a tango instructor from Germany who self-identifies as teaching Tango de Salon, states:
Unfortunately, active participation in the dance is very often mistaken as doing lots of decorations. But WOW, is this wrong! How often do I see women, who can barely stand, and have to lean on their partners for support, moving their feet frenetically, because they want to express their personality. That‘s bad on so many levels. Not only that it is totally annoying and prevents your partner from improvising, mostly it just looks nasty. But the most severe outcome from doing too many Adornos is that you have to shift the attention from the embrace to your feet.
From these evaluations and taking into account the codes for acceptable dance expression in the social environment of the milonga [Do Milongas exist outside Argentina (The milonga codes revisited)], the following guidelines are apparent for the use of adornments by women (most apply to men as well) in the milonga setting:

  • (1) Adornments should be used in moderation, so as not to disrupt the flow of the dance or the balance of your partner.
  • (2) Adornments should be maintained within the space defined by the outer reach of the embrace of the couple, either on or close to the floor, or within the vertical space defined by the embrace.
  • (3) Adornments should not attract attention from milonga attendees due to their conspicuousness as a result of excessive speed, frequency of use, or spatial expansiveness.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#66
...that there are differing opinions/philosophies/styles on this stuff....
Partially agreed. Salón can be a style, a location, a differentiation, and a brand. It clearly resembles the milonguero question from the 90s: milonguero the dancer, the aficionado, the participant, a differentiation, and a brand.

In the 90s the differentiation milonguero meant normal dancer instead of professional dancer of whatever style. The hijacking of milonguero as a brand for apilado/confiteria/del-centro/Almagro followed. this change in terminology wasn´t unchallenged as the interview with Cacho Dante clearly reveals. He first found it derogative and regarded himself a dancer or at least a salonero because he used to dance to young Pugliese. Think we had a thread on this interview in the vids section.

Today salón in the first place means: neither milonguero, neo or escenario. Unfortunately only Villa Urquiza is the only salón label that remained but there where some more. Due to the monopolization of VU some start to proclaim Villa Pueyrredón as another cradle of salón style. Also Orlando Paiva danced salón (watch his elegant enrosque-lapiz-contralapiz-combinations) though he actually does not belong to the holy pillars of Villa Urquiza.

The standardization of tango in BsAs (in the sense of VU) for me is by far the most exciting question. Only two camps remain in the competition boards: VU und escenario. No milognuero stylists take place in that patronage. And followers of Naveira/Frumboli don´t need to put up with this crazy business at all.

Perhaps the rise of VU is due to the success abroad of so many other stylists.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#67
Back to embellishments:

So why do embellishments distinguish salón (f.i. VU) from milongueo style. The required floor space is diffferent. in salóns actually more of it was available than in confiterias and bars. Also the music was different (as I wrote before) but I dont take it the wrong way if you guys dont want to follow me on that score.

:cool:
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#68
Partially agreed. Salón can be a style, a location, a differentiation, and a brand. It clearly resembles the milonguero question from the 90s: milonguero the dancer, the aficionado, the participant, a differentiation, and a brand.
Yeah, salon means club (AKA nightclub). Some clubs are big and some are small. It also became the name of a style (or better, a collection of all the traditional styles danced in clubs). The only thing you really know for sure, is when someone says Salon Style, they aren't talking about Nuevo or Fantasia (Stage Tango).


In the 90s the differentiation milonguero meant normal dancer instead of professional dancer of whatever style. The hijacking of milonguero as a brand for apilado/confiteria/del-centro/Almagro followed. this change in terminology wasn´t unchallenged as the interview with Cacho Dante clearly reveals. He first found it derogative and regarded himself a dancer or at least a salonero because he used to dance to young Pugliese. Think we had a thread on this interview in the vids section.
I believe it was Susanna Miller who coined the term "Milonguero Style". I think some people have mistakenly taken this to mean that she (or others) are claiming that all milongueros danced in this style. Of course, that's not true, unless you have a rather narrow definition of what a milonguero is (which some people do).


Perhaps the rise of VU is due to the success abroad of so many other stylists.
I think a lot of people simply like the look of it (myself included).
 

jantango

Active Member
#69
Yeah, salon means club (AKA nightclub). Some clubs are big and some are small. It also became the name of a style (or better, a collection of all the traditional styles danced in clubs). The only thing you really know for sure, is when someone says Salon Style, they aren't talking about Nuevo or Fantasia (Stage Tango).


I believe it was Susanna Miller who coined the term "Milonguero Style". I think some people have mistakenly taken this to mean that she (or others) are claiming that all milongueros danced in this style. Of course, that's not true, unless you have a rather narrow definition of what a milonguero is (which some people do).


I think a lot of people simply like the look of it (myself included).
Salon de baile means ballroom. That's where people do ballroom dancing. Tango is a ballroom dance. (Centro Region Leonesa, Nuevo Salon La Argentina)

Club in BsAs is a neighborhood sports or cultural club that has a salon for dancing (Club Villa Malcolm, Sunderland Club, Club Armenia).

"Milonguero style" or "close embrace" are the terms used by Susana Miller, specifically referring to the milongueros in the city center. No two milongueros dance in the same way. Dance is personal expression, and they all have individual styles. It's characterized by improvised small steps in the embrace.

I hope you like the feeling as well.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#70
The standardization of tango in BsAs (in the sense of VU) for me
is by far the most exciting question. Only two camps remain
in the competition boards: VU und escenario.
No milognuero stylists take place in that patronage.
No milonguero because their dance isn't designed for visual appeal
to watchers and judges, it evolved by dancers for dancers to dance.

And followers of Naveira/Frumboli don´t need to put up with this crazy
business at all.
Didn't you mean :

And crazy followers of Naveira/Frumboli don´t need to put up with
this business at all.


Perhaps the rise of VU is due to the success abroad of so many other stylists.
There's plenty of argentines behind it though some deny such a style
exists - it's salon they say. The Villa Urquiza style name has no history
though the dance style itself obviously has, derived as it is from escenario's
hackneyed depiction of milongas in shows and on the stage - oh yes,
for audiences.

The more it's talked about the more people will believe it is a real social
style rather than invented for marketing classes to foreigners.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#74
No! dchester, just the opposite, salóns usually are big, but clubs, cafés and confiterias (confectioneries) are rather small or crowded and therefore require that tight hold.
Your definition is more restrictive than mine. IMO, salon could mean a Hall, Ballroom, Lounge, Tea Room, etc.

At least now, I better understand your point of view, and why some of your terms are a bit different from what I'm used to, here.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#76
No! dchester, just the opposite, salóns usually are big, but clubs, cafés and confiterias (confectioneries) are rather small or crowded and therefore require that tight hold.
Didn't you read this:

Salon de baile means ballroom. That's where people do ballroom dancing. Tango is a ballroom dance. (Centro Region Leonesa, Nuevo Salon La Argentina)

Club in BsAs is a neighborhood sports or cultural club that has a salon for dancing (Club Villa Malcolm, Sunderland Club, Club Armenia).
The clubs are large usually, big spaces for the local population to socialise
- often dual purpose like Sunderland Club.

Centro Region Leonesa has a capacity of 400 apparently but its relatively
central location means it can be very crowded, compact dancing only.

Nor can you make a sweeping generalisation about cafés and confiterias.
The last one surviving in the city centre, the faded glory of Confiteria Ideal,
is rather large upstairs where the milongas are held.

Even a cafe which may be transformed for a show or even a milonga
can be large as anyone knows who has been in the very period café
in the imposing railway station at Retiro.

It isn't the size of the space but its occupancy that influences the dance.
Packed with dancers means small - there's not even room for anything
outside the actual space occupied by the couple.
 

AndaBien

Well-Known Member
#77
...Nor can you make a sweeping generalizations ...
I tend to agree. Well, one can make sweeping generalizations, but you have to be careful in how you apply them and understand them. I think they have little use when discussing the real world.

The minute you use one you have to include the appropriate disclaimer.
 

jantango

Active Member
#78
Definition

The difference between a restaurant and a confiteria in BsAs is a latter is a restaurant that has dancing. The famous confiterias of the city in the 1950s were Sans Souci, Piccadilly, Nobel, Domino, La Cigalle, Siglo XX, Mi Club, Monte Carlo. They had small dance floors where the dancing was compact. I danced in Monte Carlo when the milonga Pavadita was organized by Alicia "La Turca" Juan.
 

jantango

Active Member
#79
on the subject of styles

I like the looks of VU Style. I like the feeling of Milonguero Style (or whatever it's called these days).

:eek:
I came across a page I saved from an old tango magazine in 2004 entitled, styles in few words. It followed a transcribed interview with several teachers in the different styles. I won't give a complete translation of all four styles here, but will mention two -- milonguero and salon. The other styles are canyengue and stage. The chart has categories: (1) principal characteristics, (2) advantages, (3) disadvantages, (4) origen, (5) those who dance each style, (6) opinions, and the (7) music for each style. It was compiled based on the responses of the dancers in the interview.

Milonguero:
1 an embrace apilado (contact with faces, arms and chest) steps lead from the embrace, figures adapted to space available, and related to the music.
2. permits one to learn to dance relatively quickly, given tools to avoid bumping in the milonga.
3. not as showy or elegant as other styles.
4. in milongas with space shortage in the middle of the last century
5. Susana Miller, Elina Roldan, Carlos Gavito, Daniel Garcia, El Tete, Ruben Harymbat. (Ana Maria Schapira named these people; Gavito is hardly in this category)
6. It's a poorer salon dance, a little more rapid and shorter steps. They do the same to every orchestra. (Luis Grondona) It has a dynamic very short, short steps, with a very tight embrace. It began in the 60s and 70s on floors that were full and left little space to dance. (Milena Plebs) It doesn't exist per se. It's a business that certain people called it, a dance with more contact and limited steps. (Julio Balmaceda)
7. Di Sarli, D'Agostino, Calo, D'Arienzo, Troilo, De Angelis.

Salon
1. Walking dance in a closed embrace that doesn't get to be apilado (tight). Much attention to elegance of the movements and to follow the rhythm of the music. All happens on the floor.
2. The emphasis is in form, in how one makes each movement. It is the style more frequently found in the milongas.
3. They dance fewer steps than in other styles.
4. Salons of the 40s in which they made the quality of the embrace and elegance before the new space limitations for certain steps.
5. Miguel Balmaceda, Antonio Todaro, Pepito Avellaneda, Raul Bravo.
6. It's a dance on the floor, as its name indicates that takes into account the possibilities of the salon. (Luis Grondona) It consists of long, graceful steps, dividing long time sequences. It puts much emphasis on form. (Milena Plebs)It covers most of the tango that is danced on the floor including milonguero, with different types of embrace. It also has a lot of fantasy always on the floor, no hooks or jumps. (Ana Maria Schapira)
7. Di Sarli Calo, Pugliese, Troilo, D'Arienzo, and all the melodic music.



And you all thought we had battles of words on DF. They're nothing compared to those among the teachers in BsAs that are published.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#80
And you all thought we had battles of words on DF. They're nothing compared to those among the teachers in BsAs that are published.
I bet.




FWIW, I wouldn't mind reading the whole article, in case you ever get motivated to scan the whole page/article (probably into a jpg would be easy) and post it here for your friends.

 

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