following or 'dancing the woman's role'?

Peaches

Well-Known Member
Mad Tango Scientist; said:
Also because classes/lessons from BA teachers/dancers cost as much or more in BA as they do in my own city it makes more sense to use imported talent.
Interesting. When I went (6? Years ago) it was about a third of the price here. I wonder if things have. Hanged, or if I'm just in a remarkably expensive area.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
Also because classes/lessons from BA teachers/dancers cost as much or more in BA as they do in my own city it makes more sense to use imported talent.
When I went (6? Years ago) it was about a third of the price here..
Most BsA´s teacher really make big differences concerning the price (from tourist, friend of a resident, resident, peer, protégé ) whereas visiting couples abroad receive a fixed price. The studios then have to collect the depts.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
..Today salón in the first place means: neither milonguero, neo or escenario. Unfortunately only Villa Urquiza is the only salón label that remained but there where some more. ..... Also Orlando Paiva danced salón (watch his elegant enrosque-lapiz-contralapiz-combinations) though he actually does not belong to the holy pillars of Villa Urquiza.
Forgot about Osvaldo and Coca. They also sail under the flag of tango de salón and cultivate a really minimalist style without much embellishment. Their class is on friday in Ruth´s studio.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
I hope you consider that the milongas that I went to did not feel the slightest bit "commercial."

It's beginning to look like I'm headed for Argentina again, and I once again will be "passing through" Buenos Aires. I will take advantage of the opportunity to again go to a milonga (or two, or...) and see if I can get lessons in milonga the dance; since that was the only place I seemed to be doing something that was worthy of commenting on in a non positive way.

And, while I agree that AT teachers on the "NA West Coast" do it "for the love of the dance" (although I could qualify that statement), the DO usually expect to be paid for lessons. "Commercial," I think, is too general a term.
I'm not sure why people get bent out of shape over artists who prefer to sleep inside and eat everyday. They need to make a living, too.

 

AndaBien

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure why people get bent out of shape over artists who prefer to sleep inside and eat everyday. They need to make a living, too.
I agree. None of those teachers are inflicting themselves upon students against their wishes. I doubt that any tango student these days is not aware that there are various styles, and workshop organizers certainly know it. Teachers are only successful if they teach what students want to learn.
 

UKDancer

Well-Known Member
I doubt that any tango student these days is not aware that there are various styles .... Teachers are only successful if they teach what students want to learn.
This is only true for some complete beginners: others have no idea at all. Around here, they have seen Vincent & Flavia on TV or on the stage, and they (the ladies) want to start with ganchos and boleos, and move on to lifts in week two. Their men usually look as though they don't want to be there at all.

As for your second point, very much so. There's only so much you can do to steer someone in what you believe to be a helpful direction. If you can't get them to come back after the first session, you have lost them forever. There will be other teachers, ready to cash in, though. Around here, it's tango with kizomba at the moment. I don't think that they do wait 'til week two to do lifts, but start with them.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
Forgot about Osvaldo and Coca. They also sail under the flag of tango de salón and cultivate a really minimalist style without much embellishment. Their class is on friday in Ruth´s studio.
Osvaldo & Coca come from the time when everything danced in a salón
was tango de salón and they still seem to have that belief. Osvaldo, like
many milongueros, probably just says it's all salon and refuses to be
categorised. And why not indeed?

Now so-called commercial artistry labels everything so we have Milonguero
as a style as well as a person, yet it's a subdivision of the many variations
milongueros danced, and the Villa Urquiza style named after a barrio.
Neither term existed in the Golden Age even though their advocates claim
that heritage.

Wouldn't the same be true for Detlef and Melina (in Germany)?
I think you'll find they promote themselves as dancing tango de salón
http://www.tangodesalon.de/en/ehome.htm
They perhaps are another example of the confusion of the different meanings
of words, country to country, age to age, which Melina has blogged about.
Now she seems to invent her own usages though.

It perhaps would be better if we could revert to tango de salón referring
to any style compatible with dancing in a salón. I doubt that will happen
and the confusing usages will continue.

I'm not sure why people get bent out of shape over artists who prefer to sleep inside and eat everyday. They need to make a living, too.
Well, yes. Just not necessarily from tango. The influence of professional
and semi-professional dancers and teachers on social tango is insidious
whether in Buenos Aires or abroad. I know, I know, that's just my view.

However the commercialism of competitions doesn't help either along
with the whole panoply of yet more professional teaching.

The traditional understanding of an artist was someone who did his art
for the love of it, not the pay in it, with the stereotype of the impecunious
artist scraping a living not necessarily from his art. I don't believe artistry
has much to do with social tango though you might call performance
a visual art. But then I believe tango is a dance of the senses whereas
too many are concentrating on elegant looks and ornamentation,
not the feel of it.

Competitions are judged visually by tango professionals and performers
resulting in yet more visually appealing choreography, each year's winners
going on to perform and teach their form of exhibition tango for that is
what it is, not social. Because of visual judging, the dancing homogeneity
of the salon competition is misleading as far as social tango is concerned.

JanTango knows better than I, but I think Osvalda & Coca were the last
"milonguero" winners of the Mondial in 2006, maybe the only ones.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
Forgot about Osvaldo and Coca. They also sail under the flag of tango de salón and cultivate a really minimalist style without much embellishment. Their class is on friday in Ruth´s studio.
Osvaldo & Coca come from the time when everything danced in a salón
was tango de salón and they still seem to have that belief. Osvaldo, like
many milongueros, probably just says it's all salon and refuses to be
categorised. And why not indeed?

Now so-called commercial artistry labels everything so we have Milonguero
as a style as well as a person, yet it's a subdivision of the many variations
milongueros danced, and the Villa Urquiza style named after a barrio.
Neither term existed in the Golden Age even though their advocates claim
that heritage.

Wouldn't the same be true for Detlef and Melina (in Germany)?
I think you'll find they promote themselves as dancing tango de salón
http://www.tangodesalon.de/en/ehome.htm
They perhaps are another example of the confusion of the different meanings
of words, country to country, age to age, which Melina has blogged about.
Now she seems to invent her own usages though.

It perhaps would be better if we could revert to tango de salón referring
to any style compatible with dancing in a salón. I doubt that will happen
and the confusing usages will continue.

I'm not sure why people get bent out of shape over artists who prefer to sleep inside and eat everyday. They need to make a living, too.
Well, yes. Just not necessarily from tango. The influence of professional
and semi-professional dancers and teachers on social tango is insidious
whether in Buenos Aires or abroad. I know, I know, that's just my view.

However the commercialism of competitions doesn't help either along
with the whole panoply of yet more professional teaching.

The traditional understanding of an artist was someone who did his art
for the love of it, not the pay in it, with the stereotype of the impecunious
artist scraping a living not necessarily from his art. I don't believe artistry
has much to do with social tango though you might call performance
a visual art. But then I believe tango is a dance of the senses whereas
too many are concentrating on elegant looks and ornamentation,
not the feel of it.

Competitions are judged visually by tango professionals and performers
resulting in yet more visually appealing choreography, each year's winners
going on to perform and teach their form of exhibition tango for that is
what it is, not social. Because of visual judging, the dancing homogeneity
of the salon competition is misleading as far as social tango is concerned.

JanTango knows better than I, but I think Osvalda & Coca were the last
"milonguero" winners of the Mondial in 2006, maybe the only ones.
 
But then I believe tango is a dance of the senses whereas too many are concentrating on elegant looks and ornamentation,
not the feel of it.
I agree with a lot of what you say about show dancers, though I think that they serve there purpose in bringing new people into AT. I have not found many people stressing the looks over the feel, but I usually tell follows new to me that all I care about is the feel and looks is not important. Ofcourse, I often catch them stealing glances in the mirrors.
 

jantango

Active Member
JanTango knows better than I, but I think Osvalda & Coca were the last "milonguero" winners of the Mondial in 2006, maybe the only ones.
Osvaldo Cartery and his wife Coca were the 2004 World Tango Salon Champions.

There were other milongueros winning the city championships (Lito & Lidia Filippini, Pedro Vujovich & Graciela Cano), but no others in the world championships.

The FESTIVAL BUENOS AIRES TANGO and TANGO WORLD CUP program is available as of today http://www.tangobuenosaires.gob.ar/festivalymundial12/web/en/events/index.html
There are classes with champions and with milongueros: http://www.tangobuenosaires.gob.ar/festivalymundial12/web/en/activities/index/v/group/5.html
Since Osvaldo and Coca are the 2004 world champions, their class is under "campeones" with all the young couples, not with the milongueros.
 

UKDancer

Well-Known Member
Not sure what you mean by that. Do you find something missing or incorrect? As with any definition of tango, it can only be generally valid.
I was thinking particularly of the last couple of sentences. It reads like a piece of recent history, not about today - that's all.
 

Dance Ads