From Latin/Swing to Argentine Tango - Help!

bastet

Active Member
Taken from the video thread: Pablo's lead. Bringing this here as it was referenced below (see 2nd quote)





(My bold) This explains a lot. First off they're dancing nuevo. Or fantassia. Whatever you call it, they're dancing LARGE. If this is the tango you dance, then yes, you are right. The arm draped around the shoulder wouldn't work because it is restrictive for this particular style/s of AT.

However, when a woman embraces this way, she's dancing in milonguero. Also can be referred to as, "Close embrace." At which point, you lead in milonguero/close embrace which is very, very different. Leading large stuff in this type of close and intimate embrace will be difficult as you'll knock her off her axis.

P.S. As for Pablo's right hand/arm down closer to her waist, I know a lot of women who complain and dislike being held there in AT. It makes the dance uncomfortable because leaders who do this tend to lead with their right arms, and gives them a feeling of being driven like a bus. The women I know always prefer being led from the center either in close and/or open embrace.
well said Ampster... one particular arm style doesn't really have anything to do with it. It's using the the right placement relative to how your partner is dancing ans also how you've been trained.

I've been trained both ways/styles (though I have a preference) and poor training either way ends up causing problems. As you and others have said, it's not the arm placement that's the problem, but the training that makes it work or not work, though you probably aren't going to make any further headway in getting your point across to people that aren't willing to listen...oh well.

On pumping arms- I see that now and again. I'm not sure that there's actually any leading going on with it, though I guess there can be, sometimes it's just extraneous movement (like shoulder lifting from the follow) but I am speaking from things I've experienced personally and I didn't watch this video all the way through so I probably shouldn't comment.
 
just in case you missed it

well said Ampster... one particular arm style doesn't really have anything to do with it. It's using the the right placement relative to how your partner is dancing ans also how you've been trained.

I've been trained both ways/styles (though I have a preference) and poor training either way ends up causing problems. As you and others have said, it's not the arm placement that's the problem, but the training that makes it work or not work, though you probably aren't going to make any further headway in getting your point across to people that aren't willing to listen...oh well.

On pumping arms- I see that now and again. I'm not sure that there's actually any leading going on with it, though I guess there can be, sometimes it's just extraneous movement (like shoulder lifting from the follow) but I am speaking from things I've experienced personally and I didn't watch this video all the way through so I probably shouldn't comment.
It all comes down to what style you dance. I was taught that Juan Carlos Cope and Orlando Piava’s style was Salon Tango. Orlando refined salon into Elegante, which is as the name states very elegant.
The man’s left arm does not pump like milking a cow. The right hand is definitely used to guide the woman but not like driving a bus. This is the hardest style of tango to learn because you both need to be balanced and on axis at all times. I have witnessed a demonstration of Elegante danced at Salon Canning in BsAs you could have heard a pin drop. The milongueros that everyone holds in such high regard were
praising the dancers for such a fine performance. For those of you that don’t know this is not show tango or fantasia? or anything other than social tango. Here is a video of Orlando Piava dancing at Sunderland in BsAs notice what happens when they finish dancing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjpJhWFHCKA

PS another thing you might notice is his partner keeps her feet on the floor at all times. No need for adornments they would ruin the elegance of the dance
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
This is an exquisitely led dance and I can't imagine why you think anyone might call it stage dancing simply because they open the embrace here and there.

But this performance is not without problems. Personally, I don't think its a great video for follower's technique and posture. In the general use of footwork, following, and adornment, yes.

But there are at least two places where she seems to be off balance and leaning/pulling her upper body away from him. Once is about at the 2:00 mark, and the other was around 2:15. In both cases, she did not look solid on her axis and in both cases, it seemed to me that her feet were to close to him for the posture she was in to work cleanly. I watched it several times trying to figure out what happened and its hard to tell. In the one at the 2:00 mark, it appears that he takes a very slight movement forward that she doesn't respond to in kind, leaving her feet to close to where he ends up.

In this video from Assassination Tango, he dances a very similar dance with Geraldine Rojas as a social dance in a milonga, not a performance (although of course, the whole thing is a performance since it is a scene in a movie) and this is not an issue, although Geraldine embellishes more than the other follower and perhaps larger than would be normally seen in a crowded BA milonga... (the milonga in this scene is not particularly crowded)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSPW4lqF7qg
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
It all comes down to what style you dance. I was taught that Juan Carlos Cope and Orlando Piava’s style was Salon Tango. Orlando refined salon into Elegante, which is as the name states very elegant.
The man’s left arm does not pump like milking a cow. The right hand is definitely used to guide the woman but not like driving a bus. This is the hardest style of tango to learn because you both need to be balanced and on axis at all times. I have witnessed a demonstration of Elegante danced at Salon Canning in BsAs you could have heard a pin drop. The milongueros that everyone holds in such high regard were
praising the dancers for such a fine performance. For those of you that don’t know this is not show tango or fantasia? or anything other than social tango. Here is a video of Orlando Piava dancing at Sunderland in BsAs notice what happens when they finish dancing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjpJhWFHCKA

PS another thing you might notice is his partner keeps her feet on the floor at all times. No need for adornments they would ruin the elegance of the dance
I would point out that her arm is often, when in close embrace, draped around her neck.

Just sayin'...
 
Does anybody else find looking at the different open side arm styles entertaining? at the moment i find "silver service" quite fun to watch... it seems to have replaced "i'm a little teapot" as the style du jour....
 
silver service also looks like "walk like an egyptian" it's when they get your hand like they've got it on a tray and they swing it around like a stroppy french waiter...
I've been travelling around with work, it's a bit like the circus, if the circus was populated by a bunch of nerds.
 

bastet

Active Member
silver service also looks like "walk like an egyptian" it's when they get your hand like they've got it on a tray and they swing it around like a stroppy french waiter...
I've been travelling around with work, it's a bit like the circus, if the circus was populated by a bunch of nerds.
then there's gunslingers- thumb and forefinger out.

Murat and others with their "thumbs up" for the follower

the only one that seems to cause a problem unless it's don't right is the one I think people saw Gavito do a lot and tried to copy with teh hand curled in...ouchy if not done well.

and others, I'm sure....:p
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
then there's gunslingers- thumb and forefinger out.

Murat and others with their "thumbs up" for the follower

the only one that seems to cause a problem unless it's don't right is the one I think people saw Gavito do a lot and tried to copy with teh hand curled in...ouchy if not done well.

and others, I'm sure....:p
Heh...I don't think I've ever really noticed most of these difference y'all are talking about.

Except the hand curled in one...I LOVE that hold when done well.
 

Angel HI

Well-Known Member
It all comes down to what style you dance. I was taught that Juan Carlos Cope and Orlando Piava’s style was Salon Tango.
Copes was one of my orig teachers. His dancing was termed salon only recently...within the last decade or so. He, as I, as many others, hate this incessant divison [by non argentines, mostly] of every little blink of the eye or tilt of the head, as being another "style". He says, as do many others, "It's just tango".

Here is a video of Orlando Piava dancing at Sunderland in BsAs notice what happens when they finish dancing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjpJhWFHCKA
Looks simply like plain good dancing to me, as opposed to some special styling. Though I agree completely w/ your assesment of her nonusage of adornos; ganchos, etc.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
It all comes down to what style you dance. I was taught that Juan Carlos Cope and Orlando Piava’s style was Salon Tango. Orlando refined salon into Elegante, which is as the name states very elegant.
The man’s left arm does not pump like milking a cow. The right hand is definitely used to guide the woman but not like driving a bus. This is the hardest style of tango to learn because you both need to be balanced and on axis at all times. I have witnessed a demonstration of Elegante danced at Salon Canning in BsAs you could have heard a pin drop. The milongueros that everyone holds in such high regard were
praising the dancers for such a fine performance. For those of you that don’t know this is not show tango or fantasia? or anything other than social tango. Here is a video of Orlando Piava dancing at Sunderland in BsAs notice what happens when they finish dancing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjpJhWFHCKA

PS another thing you might notice is his partner keeps her feet on the floor at all times. No need for adornments they would ruin the elegance of the dance
I like this video a lot; this hombre knows how to dance slow; not fussed by being slavish to the rhythm. I think this is wonderful piece of dancing; even if it has little hiccups; but like a good dancer he is unperturbed by these... and the dance carries on....

so many people are afraid of SLOW but I love it.
 
This is an exquisitely led dance and I can't imagine why you think anyone might call it stage dancing simply because they open the embrace here and there.

But this performance is not without problems. Personally, I don't think its a great video for follower's technique and posture. In the general use of footwork, following, and adornment, yes.

But there are at least two places where she seems to be off balance and leaning/pulling her upper body away from him. Once is about at the 2:00 mark, and the other was around 2:15. In both cases, she did not look solid on her axis and in both cases, it seemed to me that her feet were to close to him for the posture she was in to work cleanly. I watched it several times trying to figure out what happened and its hard to tell. In the one at the 2:00 mark, it appears that he takes a very slight movement forward that she doesn't respond to in kind, leaving her feet to close to where he ends up.

In this video from Assassination Tango, he dances a very similar dance with Geraldine Rojas as a social dance in a milonga, not a performance (although of course, the whole thing is a performance since it is a scene in a movie) and this is not an issue, although Geraldine embellishes more than the other follower and perhaps larger than would be normally seen in a crowded BA milonga... (the milonga in this scene is not particularly crowded)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSPW4lqF7qg
I was at the Vatican admiring the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel along with 500 other tourist when from out of the crowd one lady started complaining about a smudge she spotted way up in one corner of the ceiling.
How sad it was that all she could see was that smudge and not the beauty of the painting.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
I was at the Vatican admiring the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel along with 500 other tourist when from out of the crowd one lady started complaining about a smudge she spotted way up in one corner of the ceiling.
How sad it was that all she could see was that smudge and not the beauty of the painting.
The Originator of this thread (remember her? From 6 pages and several tangents ago?) is a follower looking for examples of followers' posture and technique to understand what she needs to do, as well as communicate to us what she feels she was taught erroneously.

Regardless of how I feel about the overall quality of the dance you posted, THAT is the subject of this thread, and as such, I felt it was important to point out that the follower's posture in this video was not ideal, but was in fact, in some places, an example of what happens when the follower's weight gets back on her heels and she tries to compensate by pushing forward in her waist/hip area and back with her shoulders (and then forward again with her head). In light of the fact that we were discussing leaning back and its problems, I didn't think a video of a follower getting off axis was the ideal "shoot for this" example.

If you want to start a different thread on all the things that are fabulous in this dance (of which there are many) start another thread to sing its praises, and I'll be right there agreeing with you. This is a GREAT example of leading, and I think the people who responded so far agree and value primarily that aspect.

However, this thread was supposed to be about follower's technique, how to use the back, and the proper orientation to the leader, especially as opposed to ballroom posture.

THAT is why I responded to this video as I did. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered. I didn't want the OP to get confused and say... "but SHE'S not 'forward'", even though overall, the woman looks pretty good in this video, especially in the backwards walking. The success of this dance is due pretty much to the extraordinary leader, not as much to the high skill level of this follower. In fact, for quite a bit of the video, the view of the follower is obscured.
 

Angel HI

Well-Known Member
The Originator of this thread (remember her? From 6 pages and several tangents ago?) is a follower looking for examples of followers' posture and technique to understand what she needs to do, as well as communicate to us what she feels she was taught erroneously.

Regardless of how I feel about the overall quality of the dance you posted, THAT is the subject of this thread, and as such, ....
:applause:
 

Ampster

Active Member
Originally Posted by Zoopsia59
The Originator of this thread (remember her? From 6 pages and several tangents ago?) is a follower looking for examples of followers' posture and technique to understand what she needs to do, as well as communicate to us what she feels she was taught erroneously.
Regardless of how I feel about the overall quality of the dance you posted, THAT is the subject of this thread, and as such, ....
I second the applause... Ok, I banana dance the applause :banana::banana:

You go Zoops!
 

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