how to do enrosque ( for a man)

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
If you look at the video that was posted earlier with the red dress, you can easily see how much space that enrosque requires.I've been hit in crowded milonga's before by careless leaders when they opened up the embrace to do something fancy like that.
You can find examples of it being done big or small. I didn't say that an enrosque is NEVER too big, but that a simple pivot on one foot doesn't HAVE to be. I've been hit in crowded floors by people just extending their leg for a simple step. Just about anything can be led too big for a crowded floor, or at an inappropriate moment. That doesn't mean that no one should ever do the move in question just because some people can't do it safely, smoothly or with consideration for others.

Even if the man has great balance on one leg, it doesn't guarantee that the woman he is dancing with does. She can pull him off balance easily if he is pivoting on one leg.
Maybe.. or maybe not.. there are so many variables. I'd be hard-pressed to pull Dchester off balance, although I'm sure I could if I tried hard enough. I would think a leader with enough skill to pivot cleanly on one foot would also have enough experience to have determined already in the tanda just how stable and consistent the follower is in her own execution of a molinete.

You may also find that others don't agree that having both feet down allows for quicker changes and compensating to avoid crashes. One could also make a case for the idea that having one foot already lifted means you are that much closer to placing it wherever you want. That is usually the case for followers, and one of the whole points of coming through the "collected" or neutral position.

I think this is going to have to be one of those "agree to disagree" things. Several other leaders have chimed in that they can do the pivot in a tight space and/or are just as stable doing it as when they have both feet down. These things may not be true for you personally, but that doesn't preclude them from ever being true.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
I accept that you may have a different preference,
but it does not make me wrong.
Oh I didn't know we were point scoring to the extent
of considering who was right and wrong.

The leader indicates that he wants me to continue going around by how he holds his chest. In order to stay with his chest, I must keep stepping around. He might give no power to the circular movement beyond how he holds his chest. If I added no power, we wouldn't go anywhere, and I wouldn't be staying with him because of the position of his chest in relation to mine. It's to stay in front of him that I have to keep going. The amount of power I have to give is variable from none to a lot. HE determines whether I need power or not, just as HE determines that I keep going.
I am sure you are right - for your dance.
I've never said you don't - only that I don't like it
and there is another way of dancing which you don't want to accept.
That's your choice.

The point of all this remains, your self-powered molinette
enables the man to double foot enrosque because he doesn't
have to lead you step by step - you are turning him. It's a
different way of dancing, and, as LKSO has indicated, an academic
one of teaching and, I would say, one of look rather than feel.

I would be interested in an answer to my question about whether you ever pivot on one foot while the follower does the molinete around you. If you do, I'd be interested to know how you make yourself go around if she adds no power to the circular movement. That would be in keeping with what the OP was asking (anyone heard from him since or did we scare him off?). I don't see any point in further discussion of it until you have clarified this.
This repeated question tells me more about what you don't know
than anything before, not that I would expect you to know
as clearly you don't dance as I do.

I provide the power from the floor or I step following my own chest.
I can turn repeatedly, continuously and with changes of direction
all within the space of the partnership - eg on one tile.

If you don't believe it cannot be done, look at Roberto Segarra
who is in his nineties and still dancing:


If you don't ever do that kind of pivot, then I don't see how you can claim it is or isn't done, and once again, further discussion of it with you is pointless.
I have never claimed it isn't done, or even that I've never done it.
But it isn't often appropriate on a crowded floor and it isn't leading
a molinette step by step. There are all sorts of ways of the man
powering a turn but as I don't teach I have no need to analyse -
even if sometimes I do.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
(From my post: If you don't ever do that kind of pivot, then I don't see how you can claim it is or isn't done.

I have never claimed it isn't done, or even that I've never done it.
.
I worded my post badly... I wasn't meaning that it is or isn't done; I was meaning HOW it is or isn't done.

Other than that, I've already agreed to disagree with you on this entire subject and out of respect for the moderator's post about letting things go, I don't intend to debate it further with you.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
I really like the video of him dancing with Alejandra Todaro at Lo de Celia's from http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_5video/33ricardo.htm.
Ah, thanks - I'd forgotten that.

Here's my favourite though the light is bad (second video on the page):
http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/18decorations.htm

Coincidentally, 10 years after that video I found myself in Casa Tango
in that very room dancing on my first night in Buenos Aires with jantango.
(Thanks Janis!)

But I can see the flex in her body!
So can I - but she's only human.
Realistically though such body tone engagement she has depends to
a certain extent on dancing on the balls of her feet. At least that is my
experience - it is often a surprise to dancers just how much the whole body
is involved in that dance style.

Joining two posts together:
I don't think of actually doing molinete's. If they occur, it will be because of the music requires it. Also, it may really just be a 180 turn to get out of tight situations, i.e. floorcraft.

There is the academic enrosque and then the incidental enrosque. The first is a dance class step. The one we're talking about usually just happens on a crowded floor.
Yes!!
The one that just happens is usually very brief and the dancer
may not even regard it as any such thing, just a functional consequence
of movement with his partner. And this is where we seem to differ from
the more "art inspired" dancers.

In close embrace, you probably won't even feel that an enrosque was done.
You'll just feel like you were moved around him.
Yes - just the same for the woman as the man, it would not
be in her way, she is not moving him, she is moved to dance.

The REAL tango isn't in BA. The REAL tango is music.
If one listened to the music, one can get a pretty good idea
about how it feels to move to it.
Yes, yes, yes. We are just dancing the music.
 

Subliminal

Well-Known Member
So after all that complaining, yes, enrosque is fine, as long as it's done as a consequence of the music. So there's this word for moving your body as a consequence to the music. It slips my mind right now... Hmm... What was it? Oh, DANCING. And this is a forum about DANCING. So it might be extrapolated that when people are discussing a step or movement, they will be applying it to the MUSIC.

Ouch. I think I just sprained my sarcasm.
 

Subliminal

Well-Known Member
Dancing last night (the non-performance kind). I found i was doing both kinds, and where the double weighted pivot changes to a single pivot. I wan't thinking particularly about them, I was just leading, and my legs were doing whatever was necessary to lead the molinete, smoothly, so there weren't embellishments or lapiz. It just seems a perfectly good way of doing something with your feet to enable the molinete to happen.
I agree, it doesn't have to be an ordeal. It can just be a quick transition from one movement to the next.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
So after all that complaining, yes, enrosque is fine, as long as it's done as a consequence of the music. So there's this word for moving your body as a consequence to the music. It slips my mind right now... Hmm... What was it? Oh, DANCING. And this is a forum about DANCING. So it might be extrapolated that when people are discussing a step or movement, they will be applying it to the MUSIC.
Perhaps if you read the thread you would find out how
this discussion started. Just as another string of posts
could stem from your last sentence. It isn't a given.

Ouch. I think I just sprained my sarcasm.
Sarcasm adds nothing but a bad atmosphere to the discussion.
 

fascination

Site Moderator
Staff member
sigh...maybe you guys should consider ....oh....dropping it instead of forcing us to lock it?....I mean hasn't it been exhausted?...is there any useful purpose to exploring it further?
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
sigh...maybe you guys should consider ....oh....dropping it instead of forcing us to lock it?....I mean hasn't it been exhausted?...is there any useful purpose to exploring it further?
The really sad thing is that the OP hasn't chimed in since the initial question (not that I see anyway). I wonder if he ever got enough useful info to answer his question?
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
I'll have to rest it for while so it doesn't get worse. Still, not as bad as the time I threw out my snark. You don't know how much you use it for until it's out of commission.
It probably needs alternating heat and ice... so you should switch between hot cocoa and scotch on the rocks.
 

LKSO

Active Member
The really sad thing is that the OP hasn't chimed in since the initial question (not that I see anyway). I wonder if he ever got enough useful info to answer his question?
Yeah, I feel like we may have scared him off to go and dance swing or something. That'll teach to ask questions on this forum. :p
 

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