how to do enrosque ( for a man)

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#81
You could stop here.
But you don't, sadly, and it results in a confusion of pre-ordained actions
and a concentration on the look and the pattern rather than the real role
of the man to concentrate on his partner while dancing together.
Maybe his post resulted in sadness and confusion for you, but not for me (and I doubt many others either).

Patterns and moves have no place in social tango of the music so what tango do you think you are teaching?
The last time I checked, moves likes forward steps, rocksteps, giros, and ochos were perfectly acceptable for social dance. Apparently I missed the memo where moves had been banned.

Maybe you could post more about this new tango you are marketing. I'm sure we'd all love to hear more about it. I guess with no moves, it would eliminate floor craft issues.
 

LKSO

Active Member
#82
The reason why there are two sides, one about steps and the other about body movement, is that both occupy the same space and both occur together. However, it's because the body leads the legs that there is disagreement. Where the body goes, the feet will follow. It's not the other way around, even though many teachers teach it this way.

For a beginner to focus on the steps, without having first understood the principle of torso movement and legs as supporting mechanisms, it makes it much harder to learn the enrosque.

And also teaching embellishments as part of the enrosque is just complicating it further. Embellishments are just that, a condiment on a hot dog, but it's not part of the hot dog. You can eat a hot dog without mustard or you can add mustard for more spice.

But in a social dance situation, the woman you're dancing with isn't going to care if you add mustard or not. She can't even see it. Adding mustard is only for show or for showing off.
 

Subliminal

Well-Known Member
#83
Is this action the needle, or aguja action, mentioned earlier by BTM? If so, I'm still struggling to picture the divided weight clearly. We use spiral turns a lot in Latin American dancing, and there, we would talk of pressure into the floor, but not weight - perhaps this is something similar, or do you really mean weight split between the feet? I can readily imagine turning like that, but I would characterise the turn as coming from the feet (pulling the body around), rather than the coiling & release of the upper body allowing the torque to power the pivot. That seems a key element of an enrosque, but perhaps my own concept of the action is focussed on one type among several. For me, the pivot is around the standing leg, and the other leg is moving across the floor, either to tuck behind, or to wrap around the front. It can't bear weight as it is in movement.
The needle is very similar, though in the classic needle, the follower is still helping you by moving your torso to the point of dissassociation, and you should need minimal pressure on the ball of the foot to make the cross.

Like I said earlier, two types. The one you are familiar with is the "standard" now. That is, weight on one foot, pivot occurs mostly as a result of the spiral motion, etc.

Yes, with the split weight (or split pressure, whichever), you will use the power of the legs to lead the turn. It makes more sense in apilado danced in small spaces. You can lead a turn, or ocho cortado, without taking a step.
 

Subliminal

Well-Known Member
#84
Our first development of the giro, for leaders (and this is turning to the L, but it can obviously be done both ways), is to ask the leaders to try starting the giro by sending the follower into the pattern with a back step, by stepping forward themselves on their RF on the follower's R side. The leader divides his weight between the feet, somewhat, but has most of it on the RF. She goes around that foot: back, side and forward, as the man rotates his torso to the L. As he turns, he starts to pivot. The ball of his RF is the centre of the circle, but he turns on both feet. After about half a turn, his RF is now behind, and his LF in front, and if the turn continues (around the RF), the L leg starts to wrap around the R leg. At around 1 complete turn, the leg is fully wrapped around, the weight (for me, anyway) is now fully on the RF. If the man now starts a lapiz action, to correspond with the follower's back step, and when she takes her next forward step, he adds additional pivot to her turn while simultaneously offering a parada with a body and LF fwd stop, he has pulled off a sort-of enrosque/lapiz/parada combo which is quite hard for inexperienced dancers to pull off, but is similar in overall effect to an enrosque, and is a sort of mini-version of one of the standard flashy moves often seen danced, usually in a rather open embrace. It has, at least, the element of the turn on one foot, while the other collects around it, driven from rotation of the torso. I don't think that really is an enrosque, but it clearly belongs in the same family of actions.
If I understand you correctly, yeah, that's very similar. There are a few possibilities in the enrosque family, more than just the standard ones people are taught. According to a teacher I know, Tete was known to use enrosque from a backwards perspective, often in Vals. (Him stepping backwards down LOD into a turn, then enrosque on his heel, letting momentum carry the follower around him.)

There is also an enrosque where the leader whips his back leg around to cross in front of his standing (front) leg as he pivots, adding momentum to the pivot. (And setting himself up for a back sacada.) This is a more modern enrosque.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#85
Maybe his post resulted in sadness and confusion for you, but not for me (and I doubt many others either).
I'm not confused but it isn't appropriate for social dancing.
Just for the heck of it, I've tried it this afternoon with an accomplished
partner and it is contrived and pointless. There are better and more
natural ways of executing anti-clockwise giros. Worse, the man ends up
relatively rooted to the floor unable to respond to the changing dance
floor conditions around. It would also help cause stop start rondas.

The last time I checked, moves likes forward steps, rocksteps, giros, and ochos were perfectly acceptable for social dance. Apparently I missed the memo where moves had been banned.
Dchester, we have discussed this before and I know that you know already.
Dance, practical social dance anyway, is about movement to music,
usually rhythmic music as that is what inspires man (and woman) to dance.

Moves are about performance, exhibitionism for an audience, usually on an
empty floor so considerations of sociability are irrelevant.

Maybe you could post more about this new tango you are marketing. I'm sure we'd all love to hear more about it. I guess with no moves, it would eliminate floor craft issues.
No marketing, no spin, no commercial motive.
Sarcasm doesn't do you justice.

You have been to Buenos Aires so presumably you have seen how
the Argentines dance socially. Repeatedly we can read on blogs and
elsewhere that dancing in BsAs is different to elsewhere abroad - has
it never struck you to think or ask why is that?
 

Gssh

Well-Known Member
#87
Dance, practical social dance anyway, is about movement to music,
usually rhythmic music as that is what inspires man (and woman) to dance.

Moves are about performance, exhibitionism for an audience, usually on an
empty floor so considerations of sociability are irrelevant.
I am personally going back and forth in my stance on "moves" in the widest sense (and i am not going to try to do any definition of what a "move" is opposed to a "movement" - the line is somewhere between just a step to the right and the triple sacada de la muerte :) ).

One of the people here has a quote in their sig that says something like "Technique is to get to body out of the way of the expression of the soul" - and i think this is very true. When i started dancing i used to stumble over my own feet, especially when dancing milonga - my body was clearly standing in the way of doing what i wanted it to do as a response to what i felt in the music. And in retrospect i think that practicing moves taught me a lot about what movement is possible. I had a long period where i was adamantly against thinking or talking of tango as anything beyond "stepping in 8 directions, pivot, crossed and parallel", but over time i have softened up and now i feel that practicing complex moves is a decent tool to explore the boundaries of what one is able to do, and to expand these boundaries. And i think for improvisational social dance it is really important to have a good idea of what is "safe" - and how can we decide what we should not attempt at the milonga when we have not learned what we are not able to do?

I keep coming back to martial arts metaphors, but i see moves as something akin to katas, or working with a speedbag, or a jumprope - something that allows the exploration of movement and expanding the limits of ones abilities without getting punched in the face (or in the case of tango - without making a fool of oneself and the person one is dancing with at a milonga).

Gssh
 

LKSO

Active Member
#88
What constitutes "safe" isn't even a consideration for some dancers. They take up the space of six or more couples doing some volcada or colgada that they learned in a class, completely oblivious to others around them. More than once I had to turn 180 so that I would take the hit instead of my partner. While I can understand your point about learning about one's body by learning these steps, doing these steps in a social dance setting isn't appropriate especially when these steps turn into karate kicks (and I've had to raise my own leg once to block that kick!)

I'm fine with "moves" as long as it is contextually and musically appropriate and it doesn't interfere with other people on the dance floor. But this is something that is not taught by the teachers selling these steps.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#89
The last time I checked, moves likes forward steps, rocksteps, giros, and ochos were perfectly acceptable for social dance. Apparently I missed the memo where moves had been banned.

Maybe you could post more about this new tango you are marketing. I'm sure we'd all love to hear more about it. I guess with no moves, it would eliminate floor craft issues.
I believe that in the abrazos style of tango where the embrace is paramount, no movement is allowed. They just imagine what the Golden Age was like.....;)
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#90
Is this action the needle, or aguja action, mentioned earlier by BTM? If so, I'm still struggling to picture the divided weight clearly. We use spiral turns a lot in Latin American dancing, and there, we would talk of pressure into the floor, but not weight - perhaps this is something similar, or do you really mean weight split between the feet? I can readily imagine turning like that, but I would characterise the turn as coming from the feet (pulling the body around), rather than the coiling & release of the upper body allowing the torque to power the pivot. That seems a key element of an enrosque, but perhaps my own concept of the action is focussed on one type among several. For me, the pivot is around the standing leg, and the other leg is moving across the floor, either to tuck behind, or to wrap around the front. It can't bear weight as it is in movement.
The Aguja is where the toe is pointed towards the floor ( and possibly touching it)

I agree pretty much with your description above. I wouldn't describe the double weighted turn as an enrosque, but it could be the lead into one.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#91
The reason why there are two sides, one about steps and the other about body movement, is that both occupy the same space and both occur together. However, it's because the body leads the legs that there is disagreement. Where the body goes, the feet will follow. It's not the other way around, even though many teachers teach it this way.
Two men were arguing about a flag flapping in the wind. "It's the wind that is really moving," stated the first one. "No, it is the flag that is moving," contended the second. A Zen master, who happened to be walking by, overheard the debate and interrupted them. "Neither the flag nor the wind is moving," he said, "It is MIND that moves."
 

UKDancer

Well-Known Member
#92
Two men were arguing about a flag flapping in the wind. "It's the wind that is really moving," stated the first one. "No, it is the flag that is moving," contended the second. A Zen master, who happened to be walking by, overheard the debate and interrupted them. "Neither the flag nor the wind is moving," he said, "It is MIND that moves."
That's all very well, but he'd have failed his physics exam ...
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#93
Not biting, sorry.

Hey - this 'ignore member' feature is very good: that's two today.
A forum where everyone is ignoring each other isn't much of a forum at all.
A forum should be an exchange of views and advice, hopefully good
but there's always the possibility of some bad. This forum is failing because
contrary views of the tango frequently offered here is often met with sarcasm,
belittling and flippant, dismissive humour.

It's perversely strange that some members of a forum called Tango Argentino
cannot bear to contemplate that what they dance (and some teach) isn't
actually how it is danced in the capital city of Argentina itself. Argentines
dance something different, simpler, more musical, easier to learn and dance,
more socially cohesive and inclusive.

Ignoring members is as anti-social as the dance you seem to be teaching.
But that's OK, you can carry on in ignorance as you won't be seeing this.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#94
A forum where everyone is ignoring each other isn't much of a forum at all.
A forum should be an exchange of views and advice, hopefully good
but there's always the possibility of some bad. This forum is failing because
contrary views of the tango frequently offered here is often met with sarcasm,
belittling and flippant, dismissive humour.

It's perversely strange that some members of a forum called Tango Argentino
cannot bear to contemplate that what they dance (and some teach) isn't
actually how it is danced in the capital city of Argentina itself. Argentines
dance something different, simpler, more musical, easier to learn and dance,
more socially cohesive and inclusive.

Ignoring members is as anti-social as the dance you seem to be teaching.
But that's OK, you can carry on in ignorance as you won't be seeing this.
neither do Argentines dance like that when they are abroad apparently; saw a lovely couple do all sorts of tricks and flicks, and some of them seem to come more from Canjengue than tango; wraps, colgadas..

I am ignoring you because you are peddling one viewpoint, and I'm an eclectic and your judgement about our perversity isn't helping anyone o_O
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#95
neither do Argentines dance like that when they are abroad apparently; saw a lovely couple do all sorts of tricks and flicks, and some of them seem to come more from Canjengue than tango; wraps, colgadas..
You are right, and the social dancing Argentines have been apt to call
what is seen here and taught here as "Tango for Export". We get professional
performing dancers here to perform and to teach at pre-milonga classes,
especially in London. That's Ok if it was made clear that what was being
taught was not for the milonga but the timing doesn't indicate that.

These professionals are not regular dancers of the social milongas and you
find that when they do attend they wait until many of the social dancers
are gone and the floor is clearer for them. Their flashily extravagant moves
are anti-social. I have asked here before for clarity of what people are talking
about and have asked again about what it is that a teacher thinks he is
teaching. Tango is a broad church.

I am ignoring you because you are peddling one viewpoint, and I'm an eclectic and your judgement about our perversity isn't helping anyone o_O
My point about perversity is that you (I have to include you now it seems)
and others are not even prepared to discuss that there is another tango
danced in Buenos Aires which might create a better and more harmonious
environment if it was taught and danced here (meaning outside Argentina).
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#96
My point about perversity is that you (I have to include you now it seems)
and others are not even prepared to discuss that there is another tango
danced in Buenos Aires which might create a better and more harmonious
environment if it was taught and danced here (meaning outside Argentina).

It is by some very good teachers.

I have been told by another Only-dance-like-they-do-in-BsAs, that enrosques are part of the nuevo repertoire. I think you have clearly stated your prejudices.
If you don't think enrosques are part of the BsAS repertoire then just go away. Why are you commenting here at all? Your perversity is your narrow mindedness.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#98
It is by some very good teachers.
Obviously that is in your opinion, I would want to make my own judgement.
I have been told by another Only-dance-like-they-do-in-BsAs, that enrosques are part of the nuevo repertoire.
As I said, Tango is a broad church.
Tango Nuevo was derived by show dancers from show dancing and from
observation of the milongas. Show dancers have always raided milongas
for ideas to exaggerate. The purpose of Tango Nuevo seems to have been
to have a vehicle for show dancers to earn a living from teaching an amateur
and enthusiastic public.

Tango Nuevo is at the extreme end of anti-social dancing.

I think you have clearly stated your prejudices.
How typically prejudicial. This view has been arrived at as a result
of much learning both by myself, from teachers of every hue
combined with a wealth of other dance experience.

I wanted to find the dance in tango and it doesn't seem to be found
in much teaching here with one or two notable exceptions.

As an aside - I originally class learned a sort of "modern" tango,
best described as a cross between Nuevo and show tango. When
teacher himself danced with one of his little group it was nothing
like what he taught. I would say that it wasn't very tango like,
being light and airy, more like ballet, but unlike his teaching he did
dance the rhythm of the music. I found the contradiction weird.
If you don't think enrosques are part of the BsAS repertoire then just go away. Why are you commenting here at all? Your perversity is your narrow mindedness.
Enrosques on purpose are not social dancing but for audience entertainment.

The narrow mindedness is yours and that of others who don't accept that
there is another way of dancing that is more connected with your partner,
the music, the floor and your fellow dancers. And that it comes direct from
the milongas of central Buenos Aires.

I see nothing wrong at all in hoping for some different teaching that
enables those who innocently attend classes to actually dance the music
in harmony with others. That might increase the social pool and encourage
a proliferation of social milongas.

And another aside. Two teachers of mine were highly amused at the
thought of the shock of their students soon to attend a milonga which
was always very crowded and for which they knew the students were
not equipped. Being there the first time was not amusing at all.
The fact remains that many teachers do not equip their students
to cope with other dancers close by on the floor and you see and
experience that on many many dance floors.

It seems that rather than engage you would want me to pipe down
as other have before you. I will keep posting at times and if you don't
want to listen that is your choice. The silent readership may understand
that there is a different tango than the teacher tango of step peddling.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
Hi John!
A forum where everyone is ignoring each other isn't much of a forum at all.
da core!
JohnEm said:
Enrosques on purpose are not social dancing but for audience entertainment.
da core!
..It's perversely strange that what some members... dance (and some teach) isn't actually how it is danced in the capital city of Argentina itself...
For me Bs.As. isn´t the reference point for tango. On the contrary, when I was in Bs.As. the first time I actually felt so disappointed about how the majority of professional dancers draw advantage from the tango. But perhaps I haven´t got your romantic eyes and didn´t seek out that hidden places where time stands still, but rather took a more sociological look at the thing as a whole. Least, I do not claim to dance argentine tango. So I hope that we can stay relaxed with each other, right?

..We get professional performing dancers here... These professionals are not regular dancers of the social milongas and you find that when they do attend they wait until many of the social dancers are gone and the floor is clearer for them.
That´s absolutely wrong, better: I have never seen such behavior. Professional teachers from BsAs really do know the difference between social and performing dance. I have seen Chicho as well as Sebastian Arce dancing socially. And they actually did socially dance socially.

so far
 

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