how to do enrosque ( for a man)

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
Hi! And thanks for a civil reply.

For me Bs.As. isn´t the reference point for tango. On the contrary, when I was in Bs.As. the first time I actually felt so disappointed about how the majority of professional dancers draw advantage from the tango.
Very true, they use tango for commercial ends.
The Buenos Aires Mundial is the most obvious example.

But perhaps I haven´t got your romantic eyes and didn´t seek out that hidden places where time stands still, but rather took a more sociological look at the thing as a whole.
Interesting sociological point is that time has also stood still for the music.
Just like swing dance music, tango dance music is of the 30s and 40s.

Not sure I would consider myself to have romantic eyes!
Oh, and the places are not so hidden, they are advertised in countless
free publications easily available in Buenos Aires and some on line.

Least, I do not claim to dance argentine tango. So I hope that we can stay relaxed with each other, right?
It's a moot point. Argentines never say Argentine Tango, just tango.
We say Argentine Tango and blanket apply it to a perceived tango style
and form, no matter what the music. Argentines also only say it's tango
if it's to tango music, then almost any dancing style is tango as long as
the music is Tango.

If it's Vals music, it's Vals (not Tango Vals), Milonga similarly. At Lo de Celia
they dance in the embrace also to Cumbia, Jazz and Paso Doble. We might
still call that tango, as a teacher did who I danced with here to jive/rock
music, but to those Argentines it's simply dancing, it's the way they dance.

So if you claim to tango when you're dancing tango music I for one
have no argument with you. Contrary to popular opinion on here my
wish is for sociable dancing appropriate to the floor conditions and in
co-operation with other dancers. I merely give close embrace dancing
as an alternative to what is taught here as a better example for social
dancing, especially in crowded conditions. If someone can come up with
something else that coexists happily I would have no problem with that.

That´s absolutely wrong, better: I have never seen such behavior.
We aren't going to agree on this because I have seen it and been
on the floor with them - I can give examples from BsAs too.
Buenos Aires isn't perfect and the commercial imperative is strong.

Professional teachers from BsAs really do know the difference between social and performing dance. I have seen Chicho as well as Sebastian Arce dancing socially. And they actually did socially dance socially.
This is a question of perspective and experience and ours are different.

Yes there are conditions where Chicho's social dancing may well be Ok,
after all he has admitted that along the way their Nuevo style lost the
essence of tango. I give him a lot of credit for that and perhaps he is
rediscovering the feeling of tango socially. His teaching and performances
don't seem to have changed though.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
Hi! And thanks for a civil reply..
Thanks for answering considerately when I once was riling golden age tango was low point in tango history.. ;)
Interesting sociological point is that time has also stood still for the music. Just like swing dance music, tango dance music is of the 30s and 40s.
Yes, a really interesting point! Think in no other city, old tango music is as abundant and attending as in Bs.As., and the most important fact is, also among non-tango dancers! Berlin (think you have been there) may have got more tango dancers (not to mention tango teachers) but actually a negligible number of tango listeners.

If it's Vals music, it's Vals (not Tango Vals), Milonga similarly. At Lo de Celia they dance in the embrace also to Cumbia, Jazz and Paso Doble. We might still call that tango, as a teacher did who I danced with here to jive/rock music, but to those Argentines it's simply dancing, it's the way they dance.
Very true! But only counts for the porteños in BsAs. As soon they live over here they are as die-harded as could be.

If someone can come up with something else that coexists happily I would have no problem with that.
Think you do not live on tango, nor do I. So it is quite easy for us. But all teachers I know are under extreme pressure to bind the students to their studio. There are two strategies: offering fancy moves, as well as the inflation of class designations. tango doesn´t currently work well.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
Hi! And thanks for a civil reply..
Thanks for answering considerately when I once was riling golden age tango was low point in tango history.. ;)
Interesting sociological point is that time has also stood still for the music. Just like swing dance music, tango dance music is of the 30s and 40s.
Yes, a really interesting point! Think in no other city, old tango music is as abundant and attending as in Bs.As., and the most important fact is, also among non-tango dancers! Berlin (think you have been there) may have got more tango dancers (not to mention tango teachers) but actually a negligible number of tango listeners.

If it's Vals music, it's Vals (not Tango Vals), Milonga similarly. At Lo de Celia they dance in the embrace also to Cumbia, Jazz and Paso Doble. We might still call that tango, as a teacher did who I danced with here to jive/rock music, but to those Argentines it's simply dancing, it's the way they dance.
Very true! But only counts for the porteños in BsAs. As soon they live over here they are as die-harded as could be.

If someone can come up with something else that coexists happily I would have no problem with that.
Think you do not live on tango, nor do I. So it is quite easy for us. But all teachers I know are under extreme pressure to bind the students to their studio. There are two strategies: offering fancy moves, as well as the inflation of class designations. tango doesn´t currently work well.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
Hi! And thanks for a civil reply..
Thanks for answering considerately when I once was riling golden age tango was low point in tango history.. ;)
Interesting sociological point is that time has also stood still for the music. Just like swing dance music, tango dance music is of the 30s and 40s.
Yes, a really interesting point! Think in no other city, old tango music is as abundant and attending as in Bs.As., and the most important fact is, also among non-tango dancers! Berlin (think you have been there) may have got more tango dancers (not to mention tango teachers) but actually a negligible number of tango listeners.

If it's Vals music, it's Vals (not Tango Vals), Milonga similarly. At Lo de Celia they dance in the embrace also to Cumbia, Jazz and Paso Doble. We might still call that tango, as a teacher did who I danced with here to jive/rock music, but to those Argentines it's simply dancing, it's the way they dance.
Very true! But only counts for the porteños in BsAs. As soon they live over here they are as die-harded as could be.

If someone can come up with something else that coexists happily I would have no problem with that.
Think you do not live on tango, nor do I. So it is quite easy for us. But all teachers I know are under extreme pressure to bind the students to their studio. There are two strategies: offering fancy moves, as well as the inflation of class designations. tango doesn´t currently work well.
 

LKSO

Active Member
That´s absolutely wrong, better: I have never seen such behavior. Professional teachers from BsAs really do know the difference between social and performing dance. I have seen Chicho as well as Sebastian Arce dancing socially. And they actually did socially dance socially.
so far
That's funny. There's now a distinction between social dance and social social dance.:D
 

UKDancer

Well-Known Member
apologies...though I don't know if we are back on topic, yet.

My tango spy in BsAs has told me that enrosques are a common way of leading a giro in the milongas there....
... but is she at the right milonga, or the wrong one. If it's the wrong one, it doesn't count. Heck, apparently tango doesn't even cross town before it is hopelessly corrupted by commercial pressures. The best musicians were from Montevideo anyway, and social tango, as it danced today, came to BsAs from Paris - heck, everyone knows that.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
A forum where everyone is ignoring each other isn't much of a forum at all.
A forum should be an exchange of views and advice, hopefully good
but there's always the possibility of some bad. This forum is failing because
contrary views of the tango frequently offered here is often met with sarcasm, belittling and flippant, dismissive humour.
OK, I'll give a serious reply to this post. While this may come across as an attack to a few people, that honestly is not my intent (well at least not for this post, anyways).
:)

I think the issue is that some people seem to come across as if they were appointed to be an authority on what is tango (be it social or other), and what it is not (as if they are on some world-wide committee that decided these things). They seem to think that by constantly saying "this is not what tango is, or this is the only way to do [whatever]", they are adding to the debate and enjoyment of others, when in fact that by continually repeating the same tired stuff, they quickly become annoying, and people lose respect for them and their message.

Even worse, they make unseemly comments in threads where people are talking about moves, techniques, etc., that are outside the scope of what these "authorities" consider to be valid. Rather than whine about how this move isn't tango (even thought the move is what the thread is about), or offer opinions that don't really apply to the subject, maybe they should just stay out of those threads. Example: someone continually saying "There is no Villa Urquiza style" in a thread where we are talking about that style, is simply annoying. It doesn't help to win friends or influence people. If someone starts a thread about some topic, move, etc, that I don't like, I tend to stay out of it. It's not for me to tell them what they should or should not do in their own community.

Tango is an art, and not just a science. Different people have different opinions on this stuff, and there also are local codes on different things. No one gets to decide what is valid for someone else (other than the organizer of a specific event). BTW, in Buenos Aires, most every style of tango you can imagine is danced someplace there. It's just that due to the volume of dancers, they can more easily keep certain people dancing a certain style in specific milongas and practicas.
 

UKDancer

Well-Known Member
I think the issue is that some people seem to come across as if they were appointed to be an authority on what is tango (be it social or other), and what it is not (as if they are on some world-wide committee that decided these things).
No world-wide committee could possibly be representative, because the tango zealots decree that the only dance that matters is that to be seen in a tiny handful of milongas in a tiny number of venues in an incredibly limited geographical area of just one city. Almost no one dances this dance. The rest of us are just frauds: we should find a new name for our bastardised form of dancing, because it isn't tango, we should really be quite ashamed of our inadequacies.
 
From Robert Farris Thompson's Tango: The Art History of Love. The single best book I have ever read on Tango history:


"Petróleo and Lavandina introduced the pivot with enrosque (turned screw) around 1940. In enrosque, the dancer spins on one foot while the other foot rests on the ankle of the leg that is spinning. This trope was borrowed from ballet, where it is performed with the foot placed on the calf of the leg that revolves. Petróleo and Lavandina lowered the accent to the region of the ankle, keeping it close to the ground."


An extended quote about "moves". Seem they've always been important...even in BsAs....shudder at the thought. Of course these folks danced in a barrio, not downtown, so their tango isn't pure. :rolleyes:

START QUOTE
Petróleo and El Negro Lavandina attracted an entourage of some twenty-one dancers who met regularly with the two masters to practice at the Club Nelson. New moves were their goal. All but two—Orcaizaguirre and Ramón Ribera—came from the barrio of Monte Castro. Mingo Pugliese has recorded their names and their noms de combat.

Julio Leme: El Gurí (The Kid)
Arturo Gardet: Perita el Experto (Perita the Expert)
Juan Neme: El Turco (The Turk)
Jorge Curís: El Turquito (Little Turk)
Rafael Cirulo: Rafael
Mario Zambán: El Rusito (The Little Russian)
Roberto Marcos: La Biblia (The Bible)
Francisco Hernández: Firpito (Little Firpo)
José Bernardo: Josecito el Lecherito (Little Joe the Milkman)
Miguel Roscella: Miguelito (Little Mike)
José Arena: Pepe Arena
Salvador Lorenzo Piazza: Piazza
Pedro Bernal: El Pescá (The Fishmonger)
Ricardo Scalisi Saúl Ricardo: El Flaco (The Thin Man)
Roberto Estanislao Rolón: El Negro Rolón (Black Rolón)
Salvador Sciana: Cacho Lavandina (Cacho the Bleach Painter); also El Negro Lavandina (The Black Bleach Painter); also Monte Castro
Arturo Intile: Arturito (Little Arthur)
Carlos Alberto Estévez: Petróleo (Drinker of Red Wine); also El Bailarin Imposible (The Impossible Dancer)
Domingo José Pugliese: Mingo
José Maturana: El Negro Pepe (Black Pepe)
Raúl Leira: El Negro Raúl (Black Raúl)
Ramón Ribera: Finito (Slim)
Jorge Martin Orcaizaguirre: Virulazo (a hit in bocce)

Petróleo and colleagues elaborated pique, in which the dancer taps the floor with the tip of his shoe—a stylish rethinking of Andalusian zapateo, animating motion with pinpoints of percussion.
Further new sequences surged out of the clubs: raspadas, traspiés, and boleos. Raspada meaning “compass,” and that’s how it’s danced: left foot, in place, revolves on its axis; right foot, extended, draws a pure circle. They also called this step el lapiz (the pencil). Doing lápiz-raspada, tangueros trace two or three circles, exchange right foot for left, then resume the same action and draw several more. It’s dancing in geometric terms.

Traspié, a counterstep, similarly keeps one foot still while the other moves. It echoes a step from candombe (discussed in the chapter on milonga) that in turn seems derived from the Kongo dance motion teeza maza (testing the waters), where one foot stays put (on the land) while the other rhythmically inches ahead (in the river).

We come now to aggression in dance, the boleo. In the boleo the foot moves backward while kicking up fluently. In fact, the leg flicks back and comes down like a whip. María Nieves adds grace to this step; she curls up her heel with classical elegance, as if tracing the volute of an upside-down column. Essentially she is hooking the air as she comes out of an ocho. Petróleo developed this step and gave it its name: developed, not invented, for Méndez kicked back in the 1930s and so did black dancers in candombe and Kongo.

Jorge Marquez, a dancer of Pompeya, is said to have invented the gan-cho.When air hooks collided with memories of the leg play of maxixe, the rise of the gancho was inevitable. In a gancho the woman wraps her leg around the leg of the man, then, just as suddenly, removes it. The man does the same. It’s flamelike, limbs licking limbs, as if embracing with arms offered not enough heat. It’s a high-octane blend of art and seduction.

END QUOTE
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
Tango is an art, and not just a science. Different people have different opinions on this stuff, and there also are local codes on different things. No one gets to decide what is valid for someone else (other than the organizer of a specific event). BTW, in Buenos Aires, most every style of tango you can imagine is danced someplace there. It's just that due to the volume of dancers, they can more easily keep certain people dancing a certain style in specific milongas and practicas.
Social Tango is neither art nor science.

Without going through your own whinge in detail it seems
you think that we have to accept a teacher's way of explaining
and doing things without comment even if someone else's view
from experience disagrees with it. Forums are for exchange and
I hope this one remains so.

Your point about Buenos Aires is valid up to a point although the
dominant and pervasive social dancing is apilado in the embrace.
If we honestly identified and separated those styles in the threads
in the same specific way that happens in Buenos Aires milongas
I would have less argument. I have asked many times for that
though I guess the arguments would then also be about styles.
 

UKDancer

Well-Known Member
From Robert Farris Thompson's Tango: The Art History of Love. The single best book I have ever read on Tango history.
It's a good read, but his POV is hopelessly biased, because he is looking for every opportunity to advance the notion that the development of tango is 99% the work of black dancers and musicians. His evidence is pretty thin, really, but once you notice that he devotes three times the page coverage to a very minor figure like Salgan (because he was .....) and almost skips over Troilo and Pugliese, you start to question the rest of his premises.
 

LKSO

Active Member
This is how an enrosque occurs with a chest lead, all turns to the left.

Leading the giro starting with a back ocho. Front foot enrosque
1. turn chest (left)
2. then advance forward slightly to give room for the RF to cross in front of LF.
3. continue turning chest to the left all the way around, keeping feet on the ground.
4. eventually, you'll stop because your legs are twisted so much that it can't twist enough, usually a complete 360.

Leading the giro starting with a front ocho. Back foot enrosque
1. turn chest (left)
2. back up ever so slightly to let the LF fall or hook behind the RF.
3. continue turning chest to the left all the way around, feet on the ground.
4. you should be able to do a complete 360 turn until your legs can't twist any farther.

You must know how to lead a giro to do an enrosque. You should also be able to lead each step the woman takes during the turn as this makes the lead very clear.
 
It's a good read, but his POV is hopelessly biased, because he is looking for every opportunity to advance the notion that the development of tango is 99% the work of black dancers and musicians. His evidence is pretty thin, really, but once you notice that he devotes three times the page coverage to a very minor figure like Salgan (because he was .....) and almost skips over Troilo and Pugliese, you start to question the rest of his premises.
Sure, he does have an agenda, and his academic specialty is African art. It's not a perfect book, but then again compared to most everything else out there (in English) it's very good. And, as a good scholar must do, there is an abundances of footnotes and references...
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
Without going through your own whinge in detail it seems
you think that we have to accept a teacher's way of explaining
and doing things without comment even if someone else's view
from experience disagrees with it. Forums are for exchange and
I hope this one remains so.
Not really. It was more about the comments, "this isn't tango", or "this is the true way it should be done".

Comments, like, this is the way I do it, or this is my preference (which could be quite different from someone else's), and possibly explaining it, are perfectly legitimate, IMO.
 

LKSO

Active Member
From Robert Farris Thompson's Tango: The Art History of Love. The single best book I have ever read on Tango history: the other moves. It echoes a step from candombe (discussed in the chapter on milonga) that in turn seems derived from the Kongo dance motion teeza maza (testing the waters), where one foot stays put (on the land) while the other rhythmically inches ahead (in the river).
The quote starts on page 252-7, "Club Nelson Men".
 

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