Leading - is it just me?

#21
I've been lead by the wrist and I don't mind, if the guy doesn't squeeze too much. I have carpal in my right wrist (too much typing - I shouldn't be using a keyboard now, by the way) and last time I danced one guy forced my hand so strong I actually felt my tendon go on fire :evil:
 

Vin

New Member
#22
I don't know why but this thread reminds me of the following comment I once heard:

Some guys when they dance with a girl want her to feel that he is a great dancer,
when I dance with a girl I want her to feel that she is a great dancer.
 

Vince A

Active Member
#23
Vin said:
I don't know why but this thread reminds me of the following comment I once heard:

Some guys when they dance with a girl want her to feel that he is a great dancer,
when I dance with a girl I want her to feel that she is a great dancer.
I just want to "feel her," and I am talking about dancing!

Compression, no heavy arms, no spaghetti arms. Then I can do my job, which is what you said!
 
#24
squirrel said:
So this means about 150 euros per pass... hmmm... I'll think about it!
Squirrel, will we meet in Gothenburg?
(PR and have already met :wink: )

You can help us as a salsacongress guide (and telling me what teachers not to dance with). We show you Gothenburg :D

Tell us in advance please!


/luc
 
#25
A lead should be firm, yet soft. As boriken put it so well... if, as a leader, you're forcing the girl to do something then there's a problem with your lead. I'll grant that there are times when the lead will need to be firmer than at other times, but it should never be rough.

Many of the rough leads are there for the crowd to look at them... look at me, look at me, look how good I am!!

I'm there to dance with the lady, and if the crowd is going to look at anybody they should be looking at her. The best compliment I can get from some body who has been watching is when I hear how good she looked, not me.
 
#26
borikensalsero said:
I've taken classes with top instructors from NY City and they've mentioned "You have to force her there", which I chuckle and tell them if you have to force the girl anywhere on the floor then you can't lead. Which makes the class my very last...
:lol:
 
#27
I'm curious what it is that an experienced dancer does that makes him difficult to follow. When he forces someone is he not communicating his intentions? Is he relying on his brute strength to move the follow when he should be relying on her to move herself? So she finds herself being tossed around and guessing his intentions when he is not trying to cummunicate his intentions at all?

This situation is difficult to deal with because the more experienced dancer thinks he is better and will assume the lesser experienced dancer is the problem. In fact the lesser experienced dancer will tend to assume that she is the problem as well. And as everyone has said, it's not the case.
 
#28
David said:
The best compliment I can get from some body who has been watching is when I hear how good she looked, not me.
I guess I take it in two different ways. It is a big compliment for me to hear my partner complimented, especially if she was difficult to lead (and, thus, whatever "problems" I felt as a leader were covered up well enough for the onlookers). On the other hand, sometimes I think to myself, "Hey, what about me....don't you want to tell me how well I did, too?" :wink:

As for the comments about leading by the wrist, that has never been a favorite technique of mine, but I have had one instructor who advocates that a lot. That particular instructor does a lot of casino reuda, so I always assumed that the "wrist leading" stemmed from that style. I don't really know, though. :?:
 

tsb

Well-Known Member
#29
CocoMmlle said:
Don't get me wrong, but I used to think I was an intermediate/advanced dancer and could therefore dance with everyone... until I started dancing with some of the top dancers (well known and not so well know ones). I realised my following was not that great when I missed a lot of the leads. Some dancers will try and compensate this by a stronger lead, other will do less complex patterns (for them) which are complex (because unknown/new) to you.
yes! leading skills also include the ability to choose moves that the leader can lead that particular follower through at any given moment.

leading & following is communicating in a conversation - if someone doesn't understand your normal vocabluary, you might try repeating the phrase once or tiwce, but when it's obvious that the other person isn't getting it, you don't keep saying the same thing ad nauseum - or worse yet - also increasing the volume up to shouting (or using more force). instead, a leader should be fluent in simpler synonyms to accomodate his partner's inability to understand more complex words/phrases.

So please don't take this as me critisicing your dancing... it's just what I have learnt from my experience. Ofcourse there will always be dancers that lead hard/rough and I will NEVER get used to that.
i've danced in a troupe with one instructor who is primarily a 'show' dancer - he's never had reason to work on social partnering skills. his lead is REALLY rough & i feel sorry for women who dance with him.

dancing to look good and dancing to make your partner look good are skill sets that don't necessarily overlap.
 
#30
I am not the best follower in the world, as I said before. But I danced with people who didn't feel the need to push and pull me thrpugh moves (including multiple spins)... so...

I have this huge problem of not being able to adjust to rough leading... I simply hate it and get stressed when someone is pushing me around... :(

I love connection and communication among partners... and this has nothing to do with power-leading the girl through patterns! IMHO...
 

bjp22tango

Active Member
#31
Big10 said:
As for the comments about leading by the wrist, that has never been a favorite technique of mine, but I have had one instructor who advocates that a lot. That particular instructor does a lot of casino reuda, so I always assumed that the "wrist leading" stemmed from that style. I don't really know, though. :?:
I have been lead by the wrist and have no problem with it as long as it is a quiet lead, not the shoving or throwing we all agree we hate. From a leaders perspective it might be easier to lead with a follow's wrist if the follow doesn't hold tone in her hand, "breaks" her wrist, instead of transmitting the lead to the feet. Just a thought...
 
#32
newbie but good lead

Last Sunday I was at a salsa event and there were all abilities there (but mostly intermediate to advanced) but I was asked by a complete beginner. It was literally his first go at salsa. He warned me of this from the start.

so of course his footwork was all over the place, out of time sometimes, forgetting to change weight, that funny bobbing movement beginners sometimes do and yet he was trying really complex turn patterns he'd seen others doing. Of course, without any lessons and clues as to WHEN to turn the lady he was just a mess and it was really hard work to do what he was asking in all the wrong places in the music. When he was in step I gave him a thumbs up as encouragement (cos he struggled a bit) but this wasn't all that often.

but what struck me by this chap, although his timing was all over the place and the moves chaotic, his lead was impeccable. Clear but not forced, gentle but not floppy. At the end of the dance I thanked him and told him "well done, you've only had one lesson but i can tell you'll be a great lead. You have so much potential! Keep doing salsa!

So good leading is not just about experience. Some people are just good at it, I guess. Leading style should be incorporated into lessons. Would be nice if the teacher danced with each man in the group and gave them feedback on how their lead felt. Occasional;y I'll mention to men in the lessons I'm in (as a student) no need to tug so hard, or to change the grip or to push then so I know to go backwards or to look at their hand so i can find it. Some listen, some don't. (probably because they are too busy trying to remember the move, their timing etc and so thinking about the lead is too much just yet)

I do hope that newbie keeps up the salsa. Although he was technically awful I kow he'll be a great dancer if he goes to lessons.
 

Sagitta

Well-Known Member
#34
Yesterday night I was doing rueda with thsi girl from Cuba and she tells me that I should use force with her otherwise she is all over the place. She insisted that she liked/wanted/needed it. It didn't matter how clear my lead was. If I didn't use my strength she didn't get it. :? :( So there are all kinds of people out there... That's what I got to say.
 
#36
Sagitta said:
Yesterday night I was doing rueda with thsi girl from Cuba and she tells me that I should use force with her otherwise she is all over the place. She insisted that she liked/wanted/needed it. It didn't matter how clear my lead was. If I didn't use my strength she didn't get it. :? :( So there are all kinds of people out there... That's what I got to say.
That great salsa experience I had a few days ago? I had to use some strength with her and everything smoothed out. I was still leading though. I wasn't muscling her through the moves. It was simply a stronger lead. I tend to think that you were doing this too. Strong leading, but still leading.
 
#37
In my trials with more experienced follows who can't follow to save their lives I've decided to just do the best dance with the best technique I know, even though the follow is fighting me (or not feeling my lead) all of the way. Sometimes the follow compliments me on my leading, other times she doesn't like it. I wonder if something like this would work for follows when the lead is strong-arming her through the dance, not leading.
 
#38
when a lead is being too rough and forceful I tend to soften, rather than resist, hoping this will make the guy feel he needn't pull me about. he may just have had a series of tough follows who needed forecul signals and hasn't adjusted to me. Simple things like having your hand on his shoulder too heavy can make it seem to him like the follow he is dancing with is heavy and needs to be man-handled around the dancefloor.

Sometimes it works and the guy becomes aware he doesn't have to tug me to move, others it makes no difference and I go back to being more solid to save my shoulders from being wrenched. Generally it's the guys with poor timing who wrench about, I guess because they are used to feeling a follow go 'heavy' at a clearly signalled turn but don't realise it is because his off-timing and she's not ready to turn just yet (it being only the 3 or 4 and not the 5)
 

Sagitta

Well-Known Member
#39
tacad said:
Sagitta said:
Yesterday night I was doing rueda with thsi girl from Cuba and she tells me that I should use force with her otherwise she is all over the place. She insisted that she liked/wanted/needed it. It didn't matter how clear my lead was. If I didn't use my strength she didn't get it. :? :( So there are all kinds of people out there... That's what I got to say.
That great salsa experience I had a few days ago? I had to use some strength with her and everything smoothed out. I was still leading though. I wasn't muscling her through the moves. It was simply a stronger lead. I tend to think that you were doing this too. Strong leading, but still leading.
I guess...but yuck!! :( Waste of energy...
 

Dance Ads