Leading - is it just me?

chachachacat

Well-Known Member
#41
squirrel said:
Well... Boriken, this is what I've noticed too... and I am not a great follower, but I had no problem dancing with some advanced dancers - Super Mario is the best example. He put me through complicated moves (2 of which he had tried to teach in the workshops - needless to say I found them very hard to follow) yet he didn't force me one bit! And he is much taller and well-built than I am! Hmmm...

I am sure some great dancers are not so great leaders... they are a pleasure to watch when dancing solo though :). And I shall continue to dance with them... but prefer the softer ones! :lol:
Is this Mario Robau?
 
#43
Sagitta said:
Yesterday night I was doing rueda with thsi girl from Cuba and she tells me that I should use force with her otherwise she is all over the place. She insisted that she liked/wanted/needed it. It didn't matter how clear my lead was. If I didn't use my strength she didn't get it. :? :( So there are all kinds of people out there... That's what I got to say.
exacty sagitta, i was sort of saying a similar thing on my first post.there are (all kinds of people out there). i've had women say that to me before also,of course forcing as a rule is not good,but if asked for-well we aim to please :) ,and sometimes we men can get off by dancing with a few people like that :? during the night.but squirrel thats not to take away from your ruff lead. i've seen women grab me with death grip hands and tension that was as thick as london fog-and i would be loose and light and they still were doing that stuff/conversly i've been in my own whirlwind at times and have not paid attention to the lady that she could not handle that(im getting so much better at not doing that) anywazz this is a good board to learn and express our experiances :)
 

Twilight_Elena

Well-Known Member
#44
squirrel said:
With me it is the other way around... force me and you manage to have me all over the place... :lol:
Ditto. :wink: All over the place the moment you use force on me. Partly because I'm spoiled because fo good dancers, but anyway...

Twilight Elena
 

Sagitta

Well-Known Member
#45
dancin/dj said:
Sagitta said:
Yesterday night I was doing rueda with thsi girl from Cuba and she tells me that I should use force with her otherwise she is all over the place. She insisted that she liked/wanted/needed it. It didn't matter how clear my lead was. If I didn't use my strength she didn't get it. :? :( So there are all kinds of people out there... That's what I got to say.
exacty sagitta, i was sort of saying a similar thing on my first post.there are (all kinds of people out there). i've had women say that to me before also,of course forcing as a rule is not good,but if asked for-well we aim to please :) ,and sometimes we men can get off by dancing with a few people like that :? during the night.but squirrel thats not to take away from your ruff lead. i've seen women grab me with death grip hands and tension that was as thick as london fog-and i would be loose and light and they still were doing that stuff/conversly i've been in my own whirlwind at times and have not paid attention to the lady that she could not handle that(im getting so much better at not doing that) anywazz this is a good board to learn and express our experiances :)
Amen to that!!! I have learnt a lot from df. :notworth:
 

Josh

Active Member
#46
All this reminds me of when I was dancing with a girl a few months back. Good friend, felt comfortable, but by the time we got through dancing I felt like she had just pinned me to the ground and beat my @$$. She was SO rough, SO backleading, that I had to take a break. To make it worse, she considers herself a great salsa dancer. :roll:
 

Josh

Active Member
#47
And on the topic at hand, leading is something I ALWAYS focus on when I take classes. I'll ask the girl if she can tell what I'm trying to do, I'll try different moves that she hasn't done before or that are unexpected, to try to test my own lead. It's always frustrating when my lead is not clear enough to convey the move, and always gratifying when it does work.

Can someone elaborate more on the "firm yet soft" lead? I mean, I sort of get what you're saying, but can you give an example (without reaching out and touching me)?

On another note, I am constantly frustrated when ladies do not give enough resistance, for example, on an open break. I push and instead of resistance, I get jello. Could this be due to a problem with my open breaks or is it her? This seems to happen with less experienced followers, so I'm hoping it's more them than me in this case. :|
 
#48
Josh said:
Can someone elaborate more on the "firm yet soft" lead? I mean, I sort of get what you're saying, but can you give an example (without reaching out and touching me)?
There should be enough tension in your arms and frame that we know you're there and know you're "with us", so to speak - as opposed to off in your own little world. Also, ideally, there shouldn't be jello. (like you mentioned below) However, there shouldn't be a lot of force (i.e. enough to strain or hurt) exerted when leading us through moves. Also, please no death grip on hands, arms, fingers, etc. That's about the best way I can think of to describe it.

Josh said:
On another note, I am constantly frustrated when ladies do not give enough resistance, for example, on an open break. I push and instead of resistance, I get jello. Could this be due to a problem with my open breaks or is it her? This seems to happen with less experienced followers, so I'm hoping it's more them than me in this case. :|
If you're getting no resistance, then it's probably not you. You need to feel connection from your follow, just like she needs to feel connection from you. The connection is your communication, so when you're having a one-way conversation, the dance isn't as good as it could be otherwise.

(I hope I'm making sense...I'm very easily sidetracked today)
 
#50
CocoMmlle said:
Don't get me wrong, but I used to think I was an intermediate/advanced dancer and could therefore dance with everyone... until I started dancing with some of the top dancers (well known and not so well know ones). I realised my following was not that great when I missed a lot of the leads. Some dancers will try and compensate this by a stronger lead, other will do less complex patterns (for them) which are complex (because unknown/new) to you.

So please don't take this as me critisicing your dancing... it's just what I have learnt from my experience. Ofcourse there will always be dancers that lead hard/rough and I will NEVER get used to that.
SOOO true! it's something to constantly watching out for: your perception, versus others perception...like tsb said you have to adjust your phrasing if your current mode of communication is ineffective

Social dancing at a proficient level requires constantly learning, always assimilating the ability to lead/follow various styles in order to remain versatile

squirrel said:
I have this huge problem of not being able to adjust to rough leading... I simply hate it and get stressed when someone is pushing me around...
I agree!! I have tried to make myself relax more, but it never works. I ALWAYS tense up my biceps/triceps and shoudlers when the lead makes me feel out of control and pushed around eek!
at least for shorter guys that makes them stop it sooner or later :twisted:

Also, i don't know what it is about leading by the wrist but it almost always freaks me out a little. I prefer to give up control willingly (albeit usually stubbornly) rather than have it wrested from me, literally. It usually takes me a few seconds to accept it and respond
 
#51
i was dancing with a guy that virtually 'threw' me into cbl's... i felt as if i wouldv been crashing in to the wall if he let go of me. iow he used waaaay to much power. i avoided dancing with him for a while.
one day i was talking with another salsera, and she was telling me she and her bf (+ dancepartner) had a different sense of timing... that if they wanted to 'match', she had to respond to his lead before she félt she should respond, and that he had to delay his lead.
this difference in timing made me think.
so next time the 'forcefull' guy asked me, i danced with him and upped my tempo (i felt i wasn't dancing in time, but before time) but now i followed his lead before he had time to build up this enormous push..
so i wasn't thrown off my feet, kept my balance and didn't feel pushed around.

of course, i prefer to dance with guys that have the same sense of timing i have, but maybe it can be a solution to this problem of too forcefull leads.
but this works only, i think, if the guys don't do complicated moves. (luckily this guy doesn't, so it worked with him. )
 

tsb

Well-Known Member
#56
Medira said:
Josh said:
Can someone elaborate more on the "firm yet soft" lead? I mean, I sort of get what you're saying, but can you give an example (without reaching out and touching me)?
There should be enough tension in your arms and frame that we know you're there and know you're "with us", so to speak - as opposed to off in your own little world. Also, ideally, there shouldn't be jello. (like you mentioned below) However, there shouldn't be a lot of force (i.e. enough to strain or hurt) exerted when leading us through moves. Also, please no death grip on hands, arms, fingers, etc. That's about the best way I can think of to describe it.
you can minimize the amount of force you use by being precise in where you place it - think of it like whispering directly into her ear instead of shouting up her nose. :roll: i use a lot of aikido based technique to influence where my partner's body goes. as a consequence i can usually lead a complete beginner through proper footwork for a CBL as long as she maintains the appropriate timing of the steps even if she's never done a CBL before.

Josh said:
On another note, I am constantly frustrated when ladies do not give enough resistance, for example, on an open break. I push and instead of resistance, I get jello. Could this be due to a problem with my open breaks or is it her? This seems to happen with less experienced followers, so I'm hoping it's more them than me in this case. :|
If you're getting no resistance, then it's probably not you. You need to feel connection from your follow, just like she needs to feel connection from you. The connection is your communication, so when you're having a one-way conversation, the dance isn't as good as it could be otherwise.

(I hope I'm making sense...I'm very easily sidetracked today)
on an open break, think of getting her (right) hand outside of the space between the two of you (ideally, outside her elbow) and directing that break lead directly towards her hip - when her hands are in front of her, the angle of her arms is close tp 90 degrees and the vector (direction) of your lead goes on a plane that's actually tangent to her body & that tends to make the elbows move back. if her hands are outside her elbows, her arm is less likely to bend and/or move in a way that allows her elbow to travel past her body. at the very worst, this will drive her elbow into her trunk, which still results in the transfer of your lead to her body instead of being absobred entirely by her arms.

this is especially effective if this is a prep for something like a stop & go; instead of taking a step straight back, she'll be prepping by stepping behind her to her left. more force directed towards her hip will generally prompt a hip flare on '1'.
 
#57
Ms_Sunlight said:
I know, that was just rude. But then, when you have guys that scold you when you can't follow their bizarre and confusing leads...
I've more or less given up trying to explain where things are going wrong - it never comes out right, I can never be diplomatic enough :)

For example, this week during a lesson, a lady held my hands so tightly with her thumbs that I had to wrench my hands from her to turn - this was an advanced class ! I finally explained the problem and that she shouldn't be using her thumbs AND I look like the villian :D
 
#58
I'm terrible though. I'm dancing with a guy and he gives me a weird lead and I can't follow it, and if he comments I start apologising profusely.

The funny thing is, I'm just starting to be good enough now that I can see where the problem's come from. Perhaps the lead's too late, so by the time it happens I'm wrong-footed, or perhaps the guy's basic step isn't good and he's bopping and wobbling around so much that his arms are all over the place and I can't tell his lead from his general wobbling. Yet I still end up apologising.

I don't see it as my place to be telling people what's wrong with their dancing. I wish others would give me the same courtesy -- especially as at least half the time it's as much their fault as mine.

One guy I was dancing in at this workshop last weekend told me I was spinning too fast. I don't think I was, my feet were moving at just the right pace and on beat. What was I going to do though, get into an argument?
 
#59
Ms_Sunlight said:
The funny thing is, I'm just starting to be good enough now that I can see where the problem's come from. Perhaps the lead's too late, so by the time it happens I'm wrong-footed, or perhaps the guy's basic step isn't good and he's bopping and wobbling around so much that his arms are all over the place and I can't tell his lead from his general wobbling.
Enlightening, isn't it?

Yet I still end up apologising.

I don't see it as my place to be telling people what's wrong with their dancing.
Me neither.
I wish others would give me the same courtesy
Same here.
-- especially as at least half the time it's as much their fault as mine.

One guy I was dancing in at this workshop last weekend told me I was spinning too fast. I don't think I was, my feet were moving at just the right pace and on beat. What was I going to do though, get into an argument?
Nope.

One time in an arm styling class a woman told me she needed more tension in my lead. I replied, "I'm sure you do." In all fairness I'm sure I should have been giving more tension to the lead, but it was my first arm styling class. Leading properly and arm styling were too much for me that day. I'm sure I should have explained exactly that but, well, we are human after all.
 

tsb

Well-Known Member
#60
tacad said:
One time in an arm styling class a woman told me she needed more tension in my lead. I replied, "I'm sure you do." In all fairness I'm sure I should have been giving more tension to the lead, but it was my first arm styling class. Leading properly and arm styling were too much for me that day. I'm sure I should have explained exactly that but, well, we are human after all.
shouldn't you be styling with the free arm only?
 

Dance Ads