Proficiency points system - point IN, or point OUT?

#21
Point in system would be very very nice and would solve a lot of problems. We've discussed it on forum before. However there are some obstacles and I don't see a way they could be worked out at the moment.

1) the field is too small for the point IN system to work. A large field is required for several reasons, one of them is switching partners. another is switching to a different style.

2) there are currently too many organizations organizing competitions. Point IN system would require a way to track results from all USA dance, collegiate, and NDCA competitions.
 

Angel HI

Well-Known Member
#22
Elisedance Post #3

I have serious question with the way most BR comps are run; the systems that they use; and, the entries they allow. As an adjudicator, I agree, and was happy to read your comments.

What really defines a good comp is a topic for another thread.
 

NielsenE

Active Member
#23
I'm in agreement with many of the other posters here that "Point Out" makes more sense for the beginner/syllabus levels, while "Point In" has some very good aspects for open.

"Point Out", in my opinion, serves to more effectively protect a given field against "exploitation". While "Point In" serves as a gate-keeper on quality in the event.

If USA Dance revised the current system to
a) use a modified Point Out for Pre-Bronze/Newcomer -> Gold (modified as discussed in this thread to award points to more than just the winner, possibly scaling based on size of event, etc)
b) use a modified Point In for Novice -> Championships (again not only winner earning points)

Then I feel we have the start of a system that helps both beginners and experienced competitors. Note that this would change "Novice" to the official level of entry of competitors... you'd have to point into Pre-Championship. This might also serve to "fix" the problem discussed recently aobut needing something between Pre-Championship and Championship.... bu moving most of the Pre-Championship field down to Novice until they've proven themselves there...
 

Laura

New Member
#24
I am not so picky about which system is used, but rather want the question of tracking any points at all solved. I want there to be a database that I can go to and look people up by name or USA Dance or NDCA number and find out exactly how many points they have and when and where they were earned. Heck, this feature could be integrated into O2CM, making it possible for Registrars to check to see if people are in the appropriate level, or if someone is sandbagging, or if someone has flown cross-country to an area where no one has seen them dance in years and so doesn't know they are no longer eligible to dance the level they have entered with a new partner (i.e., sandbagging).

Once we have that, then we can see which system will work better.

I really like point-out, but that might be because that is what I am familiar with.

I also like point-in, if it pointing system is changed to be something like what I've heard they have in Hungary, where at every comp you get some points based on how many people finished below you in the events you were dancing. To me it seems kind of motivating to earn your way in. Although I would suppose that this rule doesn't force people to start at the bottom...like one could start where they wanted, and go from there? I bring this up because I still have so few points that I could dance in Bronze and not break any current USA Dance rules, but it would be really stupid of USA Dance to put me into Bronze to begin because I have a LOT more experience than that and the real Bronze dancers would accuse me of sandbagging.
 

Laura

New Member
#26
I've got to say that I'm really pleased to see that Borbala has brought this topic up, and that USA Dance is really going to take a serious stab at getting proficiency level tracking straightened out.

Getting back to the Hungarian system, the guy who was telling me about it said that competitors had a little book they had to bring to all their comps, and the officials would stamp it to indicate how many points they had earned. If you forgot your book, you weren't allowed to dance. Might make a lot of people more responsible about staying up to date with their USA Dance memberships, and with keeping ahold what amounts to their proof of membership...I mean really, if competitors can be expected to remember to bring their dance shoes and costumes to a comp, then they should also be expected to remember to bring their points book. It's not like it would be asking too much of people.

Either that, or just have all Scrutineers of proficiency-point granting comps email their results to some central person/committee who handles the record keeping.

Either way, this is not unsolvable!
 
#27
The power of DF... Thanks all for the feedback, and please keep the good thoughts coming!

A couple of folks referred to systems that are used in other countries... if you are familiar with how the system works in a country outside the US, could you please post a quick overview of it? Katarzyna provided an overview of the Polish system, and Laura of what's going on in Hungary - thank you!
 

Laura

New Member
#28
Hungarian System

Please note, this is all from memory of an email conversation I had a number of years ago with a Hungarian student who was temporarily living and competing in the US.

It was a point-in system, points were earned based on how many people you placed in front of at a competition. I do not know how the points were calculated, but the upshot of it was that if you were in a larger comp and beat a lot of people, you got more points than if you were in a smaller comp.

Points were recorded/tracked via a book that competitors had to carry with them at all competitions. Without the book, no one competed. The book was checked at the comp (I assume when the dancers came to get their numbers) to make sure that reality (the book) matched up with the events the dancers entered into.

After the dancers competed, the books were stamped as appropriate with points earned at that comp.

Everything was in the books, and handled on paper, so there wasn't a central database that anyone could check.

That's basically all I can remember.
 
#29
The power of DF... Thanks all for the feedback, and please keep the good thoughts coming!

A couple of folks referred to systems that are used in other countries... if you are familiar with how the system works in a country outside the US, could you please post a quick overview of it? Katarzyna provided an overview of the Polish system, and Laura of what's going on in Hungary - thank you!
Give me till monday - I'll translate the russian rulebook.. including all the little important details that make the system work.


I actually think it would work best the opposite way from described by Eric. Point IN in the beginner levels and point OUT on top, or no restrictions on top.

When in other countries they use point IN system, they also point you out at the same time. so by attaining and dancing a higher level you are also giving up your right to dance at the lower level.

however, everyone should be allowed to dance in open events because 1) this is why it is open and 2) someone joining the system anywhere other place than at the bottom (say, someone from another country wiht experience, or someone who had never done ballroo but done gymnastics before, and now joined with an experienced partner and wants compete in the higher level) can easier prove themselves and attain the right level without having to dance syllabus.
 

NielsenE

Active Member
#31
Give me till monday - I'll translate the russian rulebook.. including all the little important details that make the system work.


I actually think it would work best the opposite way from described by Eric. Point IN in the beginner levels and point OUT on top, or no restrictions on top.

When in other countries they use point IN system, they also point you out at the same time. so by attaining and dancing a higher level you are also giving up your right to dance at the lower level.

however, everyone should be allowed to dance in open events because 1) this is why it is open and 2) someone joining the system anywhere other place than at the bottom (say, someone from another country wiht experience, or someone who had never done ballroo but done gymnastics before, and now joined with an experienced partner and wants compete in the higher level) can easier prove themselves and attain the right level without having to dance syllabus.
I strongly disagree. First on a matter of interpretation -- I wasn't suggesting that people have to go through the syllabus levels to get to open -- anyone could start at Novice (but no one could start at Pre-Champ until they've pointed in).. Keeping the existing dual track nature of USA Dance could mean that Placements in either Novice or Gold earn points towards qualifiying for Pre-Champ.

The larger issue I'd have with flipping my suggestion --
in many ways "Point In" is about deciding when someone is "good enough" to dance at a higher level. While "Point Out" is about deciding when someone is "too good" to dance at their current level. I am always very interested in ensuring that beginners have a "safe" area to begin their competition experiences... this normally lasts well beyond any time restricted period as well. At this point its more important to force the exceptional performers out, rather than allowing the moderate performers up.

The added issue. Every syllabus level is 'unique' because of its syllabus restriction. I wouldn't want to require someone to "earn the right" to dance silver steps....

With the Point Out system for the syllabus levels a person could start at any of Pre-Bronze, Bronze, Silver, Gold, or Novice. With pointed-out results chopping from from the beginning of that list as points are earned, etc. An accomplished Gold dancer could have accumulated enough points to qualify to go to Pre-Championship, or could bump across to Novice.
 
#32
The added issue. Every syllabus level is 'unique' because of its syllabus restriction. I wouldn't want to require someone to "earn the right" to dance silver steps....
every beginner can dance any steps they want in the open competition
that is why there should be no restrictions in the open level.

on the other hand if the beginner wants to dance in the protected environment of syllabus competiton, separated by levels, they would have to abide by the restrictive rules of that protected special compeition. However, even if point IN system is used, participants are usually allowed to dance up 1 level (and they are always permitted to enter open level).
 

NielsenE

Active Member
#33
every beginner can dance any steps they want in the open competition
that is why there should be no restrictions in the open level.

You might need to clarify what you mean by "open level". Since there are multiple "open" levels -- under the current system there are at least three: Novice, Pre-Championship, and Championship.

So are you saying that you think anyone should be allowed to dance Championship? Or that anyone should be allowed to dance at least one of the open levels?
 
#34
every beginner can dance any steps they want in the open competition
that is why there should be no restrictions in the open level.

on the other hand if the beginner wants to dance in the protected environment of syllabus competiton, separated by levels, they would have to abide by the restrictive rules of that protected special compeition.
So you'll keep total newbies from cluttering up silver, but they are welcome to enter champ because it is the "open level" ?
 
#35
You might need to clarify what you mean by "open level". Since there are multiple "open" levels -- under the current system there are at least three: Novice, Pre-Championship, and Championship.

So are you saying that you think anyone should be allowed to dance Championship? Or that anyone should be allowed to dance at least one of the open levels?
we are not qute just discussing the current system, we are discussing the alternatives.

I meant champ, the highest category. The open category.
 
#37
Getting back to the Hungarian system, the guy who was telling me about it said that competitors had a little book they had to bring to all their comps, and the officials would stamp it to indicate how many points they had earned. If you forgot your book, you weren't allowed to dance. Might make a lot of people more responsible about staying up to date with their USA Dance memberships, and with keeping ahold what amounts to their proof of membership...
With only a minority of the comps feeding into the system being USA Dance ones, holding USA Dance membership can't be a requirement of having a book.

Any US solution is going to have to work in the case of participation in either system alone, or both systems together.

Alternatively, a solution utilized as an elgibility gate by only one system is still going to need to cooperation to obtain results data from the other.
 
#40
Even after your results at Nationals this year? Are you sure? :)
Parallel proficiency tracks my friend :cool: and there wasn't a semi when we won gold in latin last time we were at nationals. I'd have to double check all my results, but I'm pretty confident I could rack up some scholarship money if the opportunity presented itself j/k!
 

Dance Ads