Snotty Subculture

sixela

Well-Known Member
Pugliese is not Golden Age
Pugliese/Chanel, I said. These started recording in 1945, and that's _most definitely_ Golden Age. Yes, it's the harbinger of a newer age, but that doesn't change the age it was recorded in.

If that isn't Golden Age, then neither is 1951 D'Arienzo. You're free to use your own definitions of course, but you're definitely venturing in 'Captain Rum' territory° in which you're going to be unintelligible except to yourself.

But thanks for making my point: that even in 1937-1954, a lot of different styles were contemporaneous.

When UKDancer disagrees with you, you know that you're right.
Apparently not.

--
°
E: "I was under the impression that it was common maritime practice for a ship to have a _crew_.
R: Opinion is divided on the subject.
E: ...Is it?
R: Yes. All the other captains say it _is_..._I_ say it _isn't_.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
When UKDancer disagrees with you, you know that you're right. It's like a compass that would point to South, it's just as efficient, once you know.
Actually, some of Pugliese's music is considered by many (if not most) to be part of the Golden Era, while other songs are not, (depending on who you ask).
 

Gssh

Well-Known Member
There may be nuances, but it's the same.....So yes, if the milonga plays only Golden Age, you can queue your next followers while dancing, it's safe.
Seriously? For example i really like maderna (who is not played at milongas enough), and i would look for quite different people for 1940's maderna than for 1940's di sarli or for 1940's piazzolla (also not played enough).


I personally think that trying to delineate tango music by years and even orchestras does not work very well - all orchestras changed over time, and some were ahead/behind whatever idealized version of the "changes of tango music over time" curve one believes in.

Gssh
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
sixela said:
should I dance the same on Pugliese/Chanel and on d'Arienzo?
Pugliese is not Golden Age
One is tango de salón the other is club style. We discussed about the differences on occasion of Cacho Dante´s interview on YT. Can´t find it any more, but Cacho said analogously: ... we went to ... (don´t remember at the moment the location Pugliese played at that time) because we looked at oneself as dancers, not as milongueros any more... Then he contunuied about the decline of the prevailing dance style due to the tango craze. By the way, how old is Cacho anyway?
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
Thanks a lot Steve!

opendoor said:
sixela said:
newbie said:
Pugliese is not Golden Age
should I dance the same on Pugliese/Chanel and on d'Arienzo?
One is tango de salón the other is club style. We discussed about the differences on occasion of Cacho Dante´s interview on YT. Can´t find it any more, but Cacho said analogously: ... we went to ... (don´t remember at the moment the location Pugliese played at that time) because we looked at oneself as dancers, not as milongueros any more... Then he contunuied about the decline of the prevailing dance style due to the tango craze. By the way, how old is Cacho anyway?
Here some keywords on style (but the rest also is so interesting)
(4:15)
MP: At the moment the golden aera of tango was already over?

CD: Si, but there were still milongas downtown every night. I used to go to LaArgentina... because we were fans of Pugliese. The way of dancing was changed there.... because Pugliese stretches the music. He makes pauses and silencios.

MP: Who´s identifying with that music?

CD: The youth... the old milongueros called us a bunch of queers for dancing that way: more upright, with pauses and silencios. They were used to a more staccato tango. The old milongueros don´t like Pugliese, those before my generation.

MP: How old are you?

CD: 73... He (Pugliese) was setting a trend, .... Before that Biagi, d'Arienzo, even diSarli played staccato tangos and afterwards they all stretched their music..... The dance didn´t change only because someone said we´re going to dance that way now. No! When the music changed, people adapted, ... respecting the pauses, dancing better, ...dancing elegantly.... they were giving more space to the woman for her dance. It´s another type of dance....

MP: How do you dance pauses and silencios?

CD: You don´t dance them, just like you don´t dance Pugliese. You interpret him. Therein lies the difference....
(6:34) ..dancing in the space they´re leaving you, that´s how it goes in the milonguero style....
(20:06) It was bad to be a milonguero. Mingo, Juan and others said: No, not milonguero, we were dancers..
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
Thanks for the transcription.
It's such a great interview.

And my favorite quote.
"I started going to watch and asked Eduardo, "And what tango is this?"
"Shhhh, this is business."
 
Just a quick comment about the beginners hell chart. It was originally developed by one of the better known salsa teachers in the U.S. and as a long time salsa dancer I can confirm that it's largely accurate in regards to salsa (the exception being the steepness of the leaders learning when exiting beginners hell). As a beginner AT student (including taking a couple of class series where everybody danced both roles) it's been my experience that the learning curves for leads and follows in AT are much closer to each other than what's depicted in the chart.
 
THE VIDEO :D :D :cool:


Comment below the video (actually text excerpt):
The first concept you will learn...is humiliation. You thought you could walk. Turn.
Balance on two legs. Tango is a journey where only the strongest survive at the altars of humiliation...
Our milonga tends to be the hunting ground of the Cougar...
I don't know about the hunting ground of the cougar..., but I can certainly relate to the journey as I am new to AT. I do not, now, feel so alone. Stanley~
 
Seriously? For example i really like maderna (who is not played at milongas enough), and i would look for quite different people for 1940's maderna than for 1940's di sarli or for 1940's piazzolla (also not played enough).


I personally think that trying to delineate tango music by years and even orchestras does not work very well - all orchestras changed over time, and some were ahead/behind whatever idealized version of the "changes of tango music over time" curve one believes in.

Gssh
Well, many orchestras were influenced by innovations in different orchestras. For example, it was Troilo who brought the singer much more to the fore in the beginning of the fourties, and I believe this made, for example, D'Arienzo adapt to a more lyrical and less rhytmical style, as one can clearly recognize in D'Arienzo-Maure. Whenever I study the history of different orchestras, I pay attention to individual leaders and musicians and how they forced various types of evolution in the wider genre. This also why I come to the conclusion that delineating time periods is very useful in classifying different styles.

By the way: I love Maderna too.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
...Whenever I study the history of different orchestras, I pay attention to individual leaders and musicians and how they forced various types of evolution in the wider genre....
You know (remember my speach on tango gangs) my approach is totally different: I pay attention to the invariances within each orchestra succession. But I prefer to speak of tango gangs because there isn´t always a clear succession, rather a musical mindset. And finally, I also do love Maderna, and though he physically never played with Fresedo himself, he´s one of his most talented products. I find Fresedo´s own productions quite mediocre, but his influential power is immense. Fresedo himself was a coward (simply hear his collaboration with Gillesbie), but his transamerican ideas fulfilled within an influencial sphere, and of course Maderna belonged to it.

On the other hand, my system fails when it comes to Troilo. He´s the tango chamelion. He does not belong to any clique. He was at home in any style but, like a magnification glass he picked up trends temporarily and then he moved on. Troilo could have invented tango nuevo, but he didn´t. The people still love him for that great vagueness (or indetermination? or indecisioness?). Ok, Yogur, your system of delineating time periods does actually work with Troilo!
 
I would like to share. Tonight was a great time for me. I went to the every Saturday night milonga hosted by my dance studio. It was sparsely attended, probably due to The Memorial Day Holiday. No other beginner students were there. There is normally a beginner/new student lesson taught by an instructor and an advanced lesson thought by the Maestro himself. I was invited by him to participate and observe the much more advanced class. It was, for lack of a better word a thrill (not a word guys use a lot). He was so calm and collected in his (presentation?)... I was mesmerized by a master of his art. After the lesson during the milonga, I practiced by myself and observed the other dancers. Later in the evening, a beautiful creature entered the milonga and danced a tanda with every male in the studio. She was magnificent. I was able to introduce myself during one of the lulls between tandas ( I know there is a name for it but I've forgotten it.) Later in the evening, She asked, "Don't you tango?" I replied, "I am a rank beginner, but I love the movement." She invited me to dance... I accepted. I was nervous, and I know I was awful. She was kind and patient. I will never forget my first milonga with a non-fellow student or dance instructor. I will never forget Christina.
Stanley~
 

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