Toe leads for every step for the man?

AndaBien

Well-Known Member
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CBM is noise capable of interfering with the lady's perception/feel of the intent of the man. And if she responds in the usual tango way her backwards projecting leg will aim outward because she will feel a turn.
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CBM is only noise if it's doesn't carry a clear message. If it does carry a clear and intentional message, it's part of the dance.

It's true that both CBM and leads for a molinete have turns of the torso, but they are clearly distinct. CBM is done while the leader's axis is moving forward. The lead for a turn doesn't have that movement.

I like to use CBM and my partners are never confused about the difference between that and a molinete.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
CBM is only noise if it's doesn't carry a clear message. If it does carry a clear and intentional message, it's part of the dance.
All I can say is watch the stillness of the upper bodies of BsAs social dancers.
It's true that both CBM and leads for a molinete have turns of the torso, but they are clearly distinct. CBM is done while the leader's axis is moving forward. The lead for a turn doesn't have that movement.
You make my point clearly alright. I can turn while moving forward, in fact I can turn in many different circumstances. It is quite clear and I can progress while turning. It's a different way of dancing without the "noise" of CBM. CBM would just confuse.

Like many others you presumably walk and then stop to turn, almost because you have little alternative.
I like to use CBM and my partners are never confused about the difference between that and a molinete.
Because you have to make that very clear distinction.
I realise we aren't going to agree but while I know what you are talking about I'm not sure you know what I am.
 

Subliminal

Well-Known Member
You make my point clearly alright. I can turn while moving forward, in fact I can turn in many different circumstances. It is quite clear and I can progress while turning. It's a different way of dancing without the "noise" of CBM. CBM would just confuse.
CBM is the NATURAL way our bodies move. It is not noise. It's almost noisier to keep your chest completely still because it's not natural. CBM does not have to be exaggerated, it is directly proportional to the size of the step.

Like many others you presumably walk and then stop to turn, almost because you have little alternative.
What does using CBM have anything to do with stopping walking before a turn? You need to stop pretending like you know how people dance. You have never seen anyone dance here. (Except for Jan I assume.) You have no idea what people do or what they feel. It's incredibly rude.
 

jfm

Active Member
I was just about to say what subliminal said in the first line.
When I see someone walking down the road not employing even a tiny bit, I always notice that their gait seems 'off' and it looks uncomfortable as if maybe they have some slight neurological problem.
When I dance with people who are tense and over thinking everything so much that they are moving as a rigid, solid block, their steps feel stunted and the whole thing is weird and jerky. I think, JohnEm that you probably do it, it's just such a natural thing-a basic mechanical component of walking, that you don't know you are doing it.
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
You have never seen anyone dance here. (Except for Jan I assume.)
He's seen me (unless he purposely looked away, a LOT).

I ignore anything that very likely isn't based on solid evidence, unless I'm willing to get in to an argument. And believe or not, I read that arguments are one of the things that make people feel fulfilled. (I just said something to that effect to someone before I read that review.)

I have to agree with people that there IS CBM almost always, and if you think it through it seems that the partners are moving in a mirror image fashion. This is something that can be used almost to excess, when the music has a more "fun" oriented sound to it; but I have found it to be enjoyable for my partners when it reflects the music.
 

LKSO

Active Member
CBM is the NATURAL way our bodies move. It is not noise. It's almost noisier to keep your chest completely still because it's not natural. CBM does not have to be exaggerated, it is directly proportional to the size of the step.
You are referring to "swagger" which is a behavioral manifestation of dominance. The more you swagger, the larger and more intimidating you appear to others. Swagger, however, is not natural part of the human gait. Swagger is consciously controlled.

Biomechanically, the torso remains still (no lateral motion) during walking/running as this is the most energy efficient. Any motion that isn't in a straight line wastes energy.
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
Butler, Encyclopedia of Social Dance (copyright 1971, 1975) page 14
"this almost imperceptible twist action has been called the "Cross Gait Walk.
In dancing, this integrative action should dominate all forward and backward movement..." and "is called Contrary Body Movement."

And that's just the first of many references I could find.
 

Subliminal

Well-Known Member
You are referring to "swagger" which is a behavioral manifestation of dominance. The more you swagger, the larger and more intimidating you appear to others. Swagger, however, is not natural part of the human gait. Swagger is consciously controlled.

Biomechanically, the torso remains still (no lateral motion) during walking/running as this is the most energy efficient. Any motion that isn't in a straight line wastes energy.
No. No I'm not. I did not once bring up swagger.

Walk down the street. Just walk. Do your arms swing slightly? Does the left side of your torso come forward a little as your right leg takes a step and vice versa? That's Contra Body Motion.

That's all it is, it's really not complicated.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
CBM is the NATURAL way our bodies move. It is not noise. It's almost noisier to keep your chest completely still because it's not natural. CBM does not have to be exaggerated, it is directly proportional to the size of the step.
You too miss the point. Read what AndaBien said here:


CBM is only noise if it's doesn't carry a clear message. If it does carry a clear and intentional message, it's part of the dance.
It's true that both CBM and leads for a molinete have turns of the torso, but they are clearly distinct. CBM is done while the leader's axis is moving forward. The lead for a turn doesn't have that movement.
I like to use CBM and my partners are never confused about the difference between that and a molinete.
He is constructively using CBM to add something to his dance, his choice but not mine. That is an artificial device and I know of teachers teaching that but it isn't natural in a dance of partners chest to chest.

What does using CBM have anything to do with stopping walking before a turn? You need to stop pretending like you know how people dance. You have never seen anyone dance here. (Except for Jan I assume.) You have no idea what people do or what they feel. It's incredibly rude.
Now who is being rude. I am basing my comments on what people have said here on this forum and what some teachers that to my knowledge teach. You may not agree, that's your prerogative.

And just where is "here". If it's BA then not only have I seen JanTango dance
many times I've danced with her many times and with many porteñas.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
I was just about to say what subliminal said in the first line.
When I see someone walking down the road not employing even a tiny bit, I always notice that their gait seems 'off' and it looks uncomfortable as if maybe they have some slight neurological problem.
I agree. But that is natural walking on ones own.
When I dance with people who are tense and over thinking everything so much that they are moving as a rigid, solid block, their steps feel stunted and the whole thing is weird and jerky. I think, JohnEm that you probably do it, it's just such a natural thing-a basic mechanical component of walking, that you don't know you are doing it.
And I agree again, if it is natural rather than added as Andabien indicated. One distinctive feature of the dance of Buenos Aires is the stillness of the upper bodies. That is not controversial, after all it is frequently commented on elsewhere. Dancing in one block is not good tango either.

As for accommodating the natural movement of your partner's body that is part of the "tuning in" that Ampster used to talk about on here. With experience and practice it becomes a subconscious part of you. You can definitely tell when someone is artificially stiff to rigid and that too interferes with the natural dance. Disassociation, the isolation and separate use of the upper and lower bodies needs practice No-one said this relatively simple dance is easy.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
No. No I'm not. I did not once bring up swagger.

Walk down the street. Just walk. Do your arms swing slightly? Does the left side of your torso come forward a little as your right leg takes a step and vice versa? That's Contra Body Motion.

That's all it is, it's really not complicated.
But in tango your arms are not free, one is embracing your partner, the other is holding hands. ContraBodyMotion can be seen in tango when those holding hands start moving forward and backwards - as they are normally still it's really obvious when leaders are adding it.

In these circumstances some people may indeed call it swagger though unless it is exaggerated enough to look like an element of swagger I probably wouldn't.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
Butler, Encyclopedia of Social Dance (copyright 1971, 1975) page 14
"this almost imperceptible twist action has been called the "Cross Gait Walk.
In dancing, this integrative action should dominate all forward and backward movement..." and "is called Contrary Body Movement."

And that's just the first of many references I could find.
Hmmm - in books you can find just as many contrary opinions as we have on here and maybe more. Just because it's in a book doesn't make it gospel.

Ballroom Dancing - Alex Moore
CONTRARY BODY MOVEMENT is the action of turning the opposite hip and shoulder towards the direction of the moving leg , and is used to to commence all turning movements.

Modern Ballroom Dancing - Victor Sylvester
Contrary Body Movement must not be used indiscriminately . . . it is used on most turning figures in the "moving" dances.

He adds: Remember that the whole body from the hips upwards must be turned very slightly. It is a common fault to break at the waist, turning the shoulders only.


This is non-breaking at the waist is different to the social embrace dance of Buenos Aires so the relevance is somewhat limited but both clearly indicate that the twisting of the body initiates and accompanies turning.
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
I'd say it CAN initiate turning.

Note that Butler is clear that this movement is "almost imperceptible" in normal walking, so that in "close embrace / apilado" I wouldn;t expect it to be any more noticeable. And, whatever "twist" there is, is matched by your partner. Butler "The backward walk is initiated with the same oppositional twist as in the forward walk."

When we want to "lead" something other than "just walking," we can use more of the "twisting" to lead an ocho, for instance. Without thinking too much about it, I'd say there are probably several ways to "lead a turn."
 

LKSO

Active Member
No. No I'm not. I did not once bring up swagger.

Walk down the street. Just walk. Do your arms swing slightly? Does the left side of your torso come forward a little as your right leg takes a step and vice versa? That's Contra Body Motion.
No, my torso doesn't even move because my arms swing to counter that motion. However, if I run and stick my hands in my pockets, then my torso does indeed move.
 

AndaBien

Well-Known Member
CBM is a funny name for a movement that happens naturally when anyone walks. In order to not have CBM one would almost have to consciously suppress it. It's almost misleading to say one "uses" CBM, like it's an add-on or a tool. It would be like saying one "uses" breathing.

For me, and I think some others, based on their comments, there is absolutely no problem doing it with a partner, in fact, it can be enjoyable and expressive. Sometimes I just let the natural movement happen, which is always. Sometimes, based on my own inspiration, I feel like exaggerating it a bit. I also use it sometimes as a means of regaining balance that is slightly off with my partner and myself.
 

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