Underturning in Viennese Waltz

#61
Contracheck, it might be worth trying to find a coach who's willing to occasionally lead you in a lesson for a minute so that you get the idea of the feeling that it will be your task as leader to create for your partner.
 

reb

Active Member
#62
common theme to both threads and both lessons - its all about our own responsibility to serve the other person . . .
 
#63
CC

I think you should try to take these experiences (lessons) and make a positive out of it. Goal is to be sensitive to others in what you say and do. I don't think you intend to offend. Perhaps in culture you grew up in it would not be so. But it is important to try and understand how you may be perceived by others in this culture.

Hope this helps.
 
#64
Contracheck, it might be worth trying to find a coach who's willing to occasionally lead you in a lesson for a minute so that you get the idea of the feeling that it will be your task as leader to create for your partner.
Thanks, but I have problem with your proposal. It is my stern and famous Italian coach who originally told us in no uncertain terms that the man should, if necessary, pull or lift partner so that the couple can eventually dance properly and win. If we tolerate errors they will never be corrected. I happen to agree with his teaching and philosophy. I usually stay away from whiners and complainers. This coach is a disciplinarian as well as a perfectionist. In his lecture, you can hear needle drop. He is also famous for switching partners often.
 

Josh

Active Member
#67
It is my stern and famous Italian coach who originally told us in no uncertain terms that the man should, if necessary, pull or lift partner so that the couple can eventually dance properly and win. If we tolerate errors they will never be corrected. I happen to agree with his teaching and philosophy. I usually stay away from whiners and complainers.
Are you equating whiners with followers who don't move properly? I just don't get what you're trying to say. If a follower doesn't move properly and you have to pull or lift her, does that mean that she's a complainer? :confused: Putting up with whiners has nothing to do with the actual act of dancing something properly. Sorry, I'm just so confused.
 
#68
the man should, if necessary, pull or lift partner so that the couple can eventually dance properly and win.
But lifting and pulling does nothing to teach the lady how to dance--or the man to lead her properly (since the lady failing to do her part may as easily be a fault of the lead). So how do they ever learn to dance without pulling? It certainly won't work in competition.


He is also famous for switching partners often.

No wonder! Who would want to dance with him?
 

fascination

Site Moderator
Staff member
#69
Today was not my day. Not only a bunch of people made hay out of me today at another thread, Tony Dovolani scolded me today like there was no tomorrow. I participated in his Workshop at a local studio. He said that the man needs to accomodate his partner and never pull and lift her. The lady, whom I used to pull and lift to orient her properly, told him that I always pulled and lifted her. He looked completely shocked. I made the case even worse by telling him that I not only pull and lift her, I also yell at her, "make this much turn, this is where you belong." Judging from his facial expression, it looked that this was the most horrifying statement he had ever heard in his life. Then, he calmly expalined that the Man is like a GPS. If the lady missed the direction, the GPS recalculate it, the man should do the same. I think I know why he is so popular among adies and I am not. He made me a total fool out of me in front of the participants. I shouldn't have gottenup today.
ya know cc...learning something is often humiliating but one can learn the art of taking it with grace and making it the best day of your life:friend:...none of us is as smart as we think...and all of us have gotten our comeuppance from time to time...no shame in that
 
#72
Tony Dovolani is a top pro in U.S. He's also a regular in Dancing with the Stars TV series. In my reading of cc's post, he was not necessarily "scolded". If cc's comments were made in front of the group, I think something should have been said in response. If made in a calm and non-confrontational way, I think it would be appropriate.
 
#73
From watching a lot of couples with chronic pushing and pulling problems, I think it often comes down to one or two basic causes:

1) They don't yet understand the directions of movement relative to each other needed to accomplish the material, probably because they've been given something too complex for their current development.

2) One or more likely both of them do not have sufficient foot strength to have a reserve of stability (especially in risen positions) which they could use to accomodate their partner's needs and nearly unavoidable slight errors. When there's no spring in the feet, there's no give or compassion in the partnering and the slightest errors immediately become serious.
 
#74
Probably because no one wanted to dance with him. Please read (or re-read) my previous post.
To be fair with him, I believe that it is he who switches partners and not the otherway around. As far as I can determine, there is no lack of women who throw their bodies at his feet, for he is also a good looking man.
 
#75
ANY Pro. ( ? ) who does that in front of other students, needs to examine his own conduct !!
I can't fault Mr. Dovolani. The problem started when this lady reported my pulling and lifting to him and the rest of the workshop participants turned into a mob and joined her shouting all kinds of accusatory remarks at me, some laughing uncontrollably. This lady should not have brought out this purely private issue between she and I in a public forum. At any rate, she was so victorious over me, I think that the workshop was her happiest moment in her life. I tried to offer an explanation (i.e., "if she doesn't want to dance properly, why does she dance at all?), but it was drowned into the booing noise the rest of the people was making, no one could hear it.
 

tangotime

Well-Known Member
#76
I can't fault Mr. Dovolani.



But YOU said HE berated you !--- in other words, he took up the " cause"-- of those present--

As a prof., have had to deal with numerous bouts of discontent from all and sundry-- but NEVER have I, or would I , resort to that kind of behaviour.

If you wish to defend it -- then I am at a loss to why you posted the comment ?
 
#77
No, you should not push or pull your partner when dancing underturned turns in Viennese Waltz...
So, you agree with Mr. D that men are GPS? Mr. D actually made a startling statement that I had never heard before. He said that men should let the women lead, then all problems would disappear. Isn't this a deviation from conventional wisdom? Remember what my the other coach said: In dancing, women are not followers but participants. Now, Mr. D says, in effect, that women are the leaders and men are followers.
 
#78
But YOU said HE berated you !--- in other words, he took up the " cause"-- of those present-- As a prof., have had to deal with numerous bouts of discontent from all and sundry-- but NEVER have I, or would I , resort to that kind of behaviour. If you wish to defend it -- then I am at a loss to why you posted the comment ?
Were I Mr D, I'd also side with the lady rather than with me since I can endure the beating better. IMHO, Coaching is a delicate balancing act.
 

atk

Active Member
#79
He made me a total fool out of me in front of the participants. I shouldn't have gottenup today.
Being called out in the middle of the class, in front of everyone, can be embarrassing. That's perfectly normal.

You might consider that this was a point of technique that you didn't know, and that you hadn't previously learned. One could only be marked a fool if they know the technique, know that the results one wishes will only be obtained by applying the technique, and even have the ability to apply the technique, then refuse even try to apply it. You might take this opportunity to focus on what Tony taught you, rather than (the perfectly normal) focusing on feeling foolish.

Besides, there may have been other leaders who do exactly the same thing, and benefited from hearing it told to you. From things I've read on DF, it seems that pushing/pulling is not an uncommon occurrence.
 

atk

Active Member
#80
This lady should not have brought out this purely private issue between she and I in a public forum.
Are you sure none of the other men were pushing/pulling/lifting? Most often, when I've seen someone mention a particular problem with a partner, it's really a problem with multiple partners. If you were the fifth person to push/pull/lift, she may have decided it was valuable enough to enough people in the room to bring it up.
 

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